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Topic: Ron Paul

Progressives & libertarians


Common ground between the two, and the ultimate division that makes them different based on an article on Ron Paul from a progressive.
by James Goodfellow
(libertarian)
Monday, August 29, 2011

In an effort to better understand my friends with progressive political views, I am often on the lookout for articles that present just such an opportunity. We are friends in part because we share many similar views, but there is a deep chasm separating our ultimate understanding of the workings of an ideal society.

In a recent article, Stephen Lendman, a host on the Progressive Radio Network had this to say about the election season (inline italic comments mine). Notice my near total agreement with the points he makes. I am assuming that my progressive friends share a similar viewpoint as the author. 

"Consider the unpalatable 2012 options, a choice between:

-- a so far unopposed lawless/crime boss/militarist/pro-war/anti-populist president; and

agree

-- a rogue's gallery of Republican aspirants, looking more like a police lineup than legitimate candidates for any office, let alone the nation's highest - with one exception, Ron Paul, ignored by America's media for the following reasons:

agree

(1) He advocates abolishing the Federal Reserve, owned and run by Wall Street. In fact, several times in Congress, he introduced the Federal Reserve Abolition Act. With no co-sponsors, no further action followed.

Yet, restoring sound money and a healthy economy requires Fed abolition, returning money creation power to the US Treasury as the Constitution mandates (Article I, Section 8).

agree

(2) He also wants squandering America's resources on imperial wars ended, using the nation's wealth instead for productive economic growth.

agree

(3) In addition, he opposes police state laws like the USA Patriot Act

agree

though not for all the right reasons

Don't know what Stephen deems are the right reasons, so no comment

Key for him is loss of personal privacy.

Not really, key for RP is that the Patriot Act grossly violates the Constitution, a document RP has sworn to defend and protect 11 times now. In particular, it effectively nullifies the 4th Amendment. The loss of privacy is a symptom of that nullification.

(4) While advocating free trade, he's against NAFTA, DR-CAFTA, and other one-sided FTAs, serving special interests, not everyone equitably.

agree, although I'm guessing he also objects to the term FTA associated with these agreements, in that there is nothing remotely "free trade" about them.

(5) He calls the war on drugs "costly and ineffective, while creating terrible violent crime." True enough, but it's much worse, largely responsible for creating the world's largest gulag, mostly filled with nonviolent inmates, deserving reprimands and perhaps fines at most, not prison time.

agree

At the same time, as a libertarian, he believes government's only role is to respect, protect, and defend personal freedoms.

agree. To be clear, RP doesn't broad brush advocate what government should do, he limits his opinions to the context of the role he is seeking. Therefore, when he is seeking the federal presidency, his opinions reflect the job description of "president" as defined by the federal constitution; they do not reflect the job description of "king of the universe", where he has the power to do anything he wants. Therefore, when he says for example that the Dept Of Public Education should be abolished, it's not that he's against education, it's because he doesn't see where, in the job description of federal president, he could support such a bureaucracy.

As the Libertarian Party's Preamble advocates, everyone should retain "sovereign(ty) over their own lives," not "sacrifice (it) for the benefit of others. 

agree. How could I not, it's the opening statement.

In other words, government's responsibility for universal healthcare, education, and other essential services is incompatible with personal freedom. Everyone should be on their own to provide them, even though millions, through no fault of their own, can't.

agree. So far that's 11 issues raised by a progressive, and I, a libertarian, agree fully with 10, and somewhat with the 11th. Where is the chasm?

In contrast, progressives define freedom and responsibility differently, believing government must assure equity, social justice, and safety net protections for society's least advantaged. Throwing them overboard can't be tolerated."

Oh, there it is. Here is a question then : how? Toleration be damned, how? How will government assure equity? How will they assure social justice? How will they provide safety nets?

There is no magic wand to wave to make stupid smart, or sick healthy, or uncoordinated graceful, or ugly pretty. There is however a way to make poor rich, or at least richer: the government calls it taxation - I call it theft - I suppose progressives call it the cost of doing business - if you're gonna raise some people up, it's faster & easier to coerce the others than to convince them. Take from Peter to pay Paul, and you are assured of Paul's support. Since there are more Pauls than Peters, how can you lose? I don't think it's that calculated, but that is it's essence.

What that makes, from my viewpoint, is a government that is master over all it's citizens, penalizing success to limit failure. Think of it as a giant insurance company, only you have to have a policy or you can't live here. And, your premium is a function of your success - the bigger your success, the bigger your bill. Land of the free indeed. If I risk all in an effort to better my position, should I fail, the loss is mine, but should I succeed, the gain belongs to all.

Personally I question the ethic that forces a man into the status of slave working part of his life for others as reward for his success. I guess I prefer voluntary relationships. 

Charity has worked for as long as there has been personal excess & compassion. It requires educating people, and that is often slow & difficult work. It is also less certain than taxation, but is for me, unarguably morally preferable. 

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©2011 James Goodfellow, all rights reserved. You must have written permission from the author in order to republish this work.
Published: Monday, August 29, 2011
Last modified: Monday, August 29, 2011

The views expressed in this article are those of James Goodfellow only and do not represent the views of Nolan Chart, LLC or its affiliates. James Goodfellow is solely responsible for the contents of this article and is not an employee or otherwise affiliated with Nolan Chart, LLC in his/her role as a columnist.

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Posted By: Bill Gee
Date: August 30, 2011   07:00:28 AM

Social welfare and ensuring equality are not the only functions of taxation, and this again seems to be one of the major philosophical sticking points between Progressives and Libertarians. The following are functions of taxation that cannot be simply left to the private sector.

1) Infrastructure: This not only includes roads & bridges, but it also includes street lights, police & firefighters, water & sewerage, and emergency management. History has shown that when these items are left to the private sector to solve, it creates huge disparities in levels of service and the people on the lowest end of the economic scales tend to be the ones that suffer the most. A quick comparison between the disaster responses between Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Irene makes that case. Love it or hate it, Education falls under this category as well.

2) Financial Regulation: Left to their own devices, financial institutions will do everything in their power to rob from the poor, kill innovation, and create barriers to entry for anyone with a good idea. History has shown that whenever the government decides to allow businesses to "self-regulate" it usually results in greed that leads to disaster that hurts everyone - especially those who worked hard to "play by the rules". Without a well-funded, corruption resistant regulatory body, the extremely rich will continue to take unfair advantage of the rest of us.

You make the case that taxation is theft. I would agree with that if I felt that my tax dollars were only going to line the pockets of the extremely wealthy and not to improve or maintain our infrastructure or to police our most corrupt institutions. At the moment I do feel as though this is the case, so I empathize with your position on the subject. Therefore, I agree that the tax code is in need of serious reform, and that the overall structure of the government needs to be reformed, but to throw the whole thing out the window in favor of laissez faire is simply unrealistic and dangerous.

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Posted By: gede
Date: August 30, 2011   11:33:08 PM

1. INFRASTRUCTURE

Infrastructure is key to maintaining the multinational corporate system. By socializing infrastructure the mega corps are able to locate their factories in countries with the absolute lowest labor cost and transport, on the public dole, to the region with the absolute highest market price. Try doing that when infrastructure cost must be born by the users, not by all of us.

2. REGULATION

The financial system is built on regulation. Monopoly of money and everything else is based on regulation. remove regulation and fiat money finds its real value and other currencies and mediums of exchange rise to fill in the void. what you are probably concerned about is actually deception and fraud that are the mode of operation of the financial industry. This occurs not in spite of regulation, but because of it. remove all regulation and allow the populace to set their own values, rather than allowing the banks and the federal reserve to set the value and their own profit margins.

Theft or coercive taxation is necessary to any government that is based of force rather than consent.

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Posted By: Bentree
Date: August 31, 2011   06:48:07 AM

James,
Progressives would love to wrap themselves in a cloak of Libertarianism, anything but the truth of what they are and their intentions. They are two entirely different vehicles, the key to Liberty is the individual, the key to progressivism/socialism/marxism is the state, the collective, like oil and water, they are ideologies too diverse to mix. Conservatives and libertarians can co-exist but progressive's must hide their essence while conservatives, libertarians wear theirs proudly. It is the attempt to mix Liberty with progressive, well that is the genisis of our current problems and the eventual death knell of our experiment. Fundimental change, is what progressive's desire and in the end they will accept no less. It is a war of attrition, make no mistake.

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Posted By: PunkMaister
Date: December 11, 2011   04:28:40 PM

Social welfare and ensuring equality are not the only functions of taxation, and this again seems to be one of the major philosophical sticking points between Progressives and Libertarians. The following are functions of taxation that cannot be simply left to the private sector.

1) Infrastructure: This not only includes roads & bridges, but it also includes street lights, police & firefighters, water & sewerage, and emergency management. History has shown that when these items are left to the private sector to solve, it creates huge disparities in levels of service and the people on the lowest end of the economic scales tend to be the ones that suffer the most. A quick comparison between the disaster responses between Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Irene makes that case. Love it or hate it, Education falls under this category as well.

2) Financial Regulation: Left to their own devices, financial institutions will do everything in their power to rob from the poor, kill innovation, and create barriers to entry for anyone with a good idea. History has shown that whenever the government decides to allow businesses to "self-regulate" it usually results in greed that leads to disaster that hurts everyone - especially those who worked hard to "play by the rules". Without a well-funded, corruption resistant regulatory body, the extremely rich will continue to take unfair advantage of the rest of us.

You make the case that taxation is theft. I would agree with that if I felt that my tax dollars were only going to line the pockets of the extremely wealthy and not to improve or maintain our infrastructure or to police our most corrupt institutions. At the moment I do feel as though this is the case, so I empathize with your position on the subject. Therefore, I agree that the tax code is in need of serious reform, and that the overall structure of the government needs to be reformed, but to throw the whole thing out the window in favor of laissez faire is simply unrealistic and dangerous.


That's absolutely false but it is precisely the progressives bread and butter none the less.


For example the whole example of hurricanes Katrina and Irene are nothing but hot air. Both hurricanes were attended by FEMA a government agency. And actually in Irene there were a whole lot of volunteers that decided to go and help as well and the disasters cannot be more different in scope, it's like comparing a small tremor to a full blown 8.5 Richter scale Earthquake. But again this kind of double talk is typical progressive behavior. Just as it to lie about Private Enterprise. For example the biggest lie is that it was an unregulated market that led to the 1938 crash when nothing could be further from the truth, the market came under heavy government regulation and scrutiny beginning in 1913 and I know that the progressives on this board will be mashing their teeth and post curses and wish me dead and what have you, I don't care the truth hurts so if your ilk doesn't like it that's tough as they say.

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