So much patriotic spirit is going to waste, as the best solution to a sagging economy captures little to no interest from tea party groups. by 1deciple
(centrist)
Thursday, July 29, 2010
I am frustrated to the MAX! I've been promoting The FairTax ever since H.R. 25 was first introduced and immediately sent to committee to die. I've been writing articles explaining/promoting/defending or correcting mis-information about The FairTax on my own blog,* in letters to the newspapers, and in several Internet forums I post in for many months now. Since the advent of The Tea Party movement, I've posted in many of the individual Websites that have sprung up, associated with the conservative, Constitution-supporting groups who consider themselves part of the Tea Party Movement.
My frustration arises from the lack of interest I find among 'tea partyers' for The FairTax. As for me, I'm fully sold on the absolutely positive benefits to our economy, the political structure, personal standard of living, employment, business growth...you name it, enactment of The FairTax would be the single most marvelous, POSITIVE change that could be made to America. I know this, and have been trying to convince everyone I talk to how very desperately we NEED The FairTax. It kills me to hear national newscasters and commentators talking about changes in the tax code being considered, and they act as though they never heard of The FairTax! What's worse, is the relative silence about The FairTax coming from most of the Tea Party groups.
By this time--thanks to Mike Huckabee, Neil Boortz, John Linder and a handful of other significant personages, I think most Americans should have at least HEARD of The FairTax. What I don't understand is, WHY ISN'T THE ENTIRE COUNTRY ON FIRE FOR IT???! THEY CERTAINLY SHOULD BE! The Tea Party groups ought to be giving The FairTax their first priority after the selection and election of good candidates, but few of them are. WHY AREN'T THEY?!!! By now, there should be a groundswell demanding Congress at least seriously consider the merits of The FairTax. One so big that ALL the media could no longer ignore it. Demonstrations should be drawing thousands with signs and banners DEMANDING that Congress enact H.R. 25, The FairTax!!
It ought to be the MAIN topic of discussion in every home in America, and on all the "letters to the editor" columns across the land! The noise should be so LOUD that members of Congress would be compelled to hold substantive and serious debate about it. Mr Boortz and Mr. Linder and other articulate, knowledgeable spokespersons who are most familiar with The FairTax should be on all the TV and Cable Network talk shows, answering questions and de-bunking the false information opponents are propagating. Why isn't any of this happening????!!
It's driving me crazy! Wake up America!!! Time is a wastin, make some NOISE! The economy's in big trouble...people are out of work...and politicians are using the present tax code against America! There is no more important issue that you can get behind right now, so WHY AREN'T YOU??!! At this point, I feel like throwing in a long line of curse words for emphasis, only, I don't curse...as a rule. As my wife would say, "Yeah! Right!"
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The reasons why the tax with the self-contradictory name hasn't caught on are really very simple and easy to understand.
1. The FairTax is a bad idea. Period. There is nothing inherently fair about a national sales tax.
2. We don't need another tax. We need to remove taxes, not add them.
3. The public doesn't want a flat tax. Poll after poll has shown this very clearly.
4. The FairTax has been put forth in a very misleading way to make a 30% tax sound like a 23% tax. That was stupid on the part of Linder and Boortz, because people eventually figured it out, and it made Linder, Boorts, and the FairTax supporters sound like liars and cheats.
5. The FairTax's defenders are in complete denial about the negative effects it would have.
6. The FairTax would do absolutely nothing to shrink the bloated U.S. government's size (contrary to Boortz's and Linder's claims). It would only shift the tax burden around.
7. The notion that the FairTax would permanently replace the income tax and Social Security, that Congress wouldn't try to keep all of them anyway, is just plain gullible thinking and demonstrates a complete lack of appreciation and understanding of just how corrupt and powerful the politicians are at the federal level. What's needed is to remove and/or reduce their power, not to increase it.
If you really want to focus on an issue that would matter, that would make a real difference, I suggest you focus on legalizing gold and silver for use as money. Fiat, debt-based money is at the root of our problems and rests as the foundation of every issue we face, including taxation and government power.
I can't speak for tea-partiers, but I imagine many of their objections are along similar lines.
Posted By: Bentree
Date: July 29, 2010 07:15:26 AM
Reality,
Walt wrote,
"7. The notion that the FairTax would permanently replace the income tax and Social Security, that Congress wouldn't try to keep all of them anyway, is just plain gullible thinking and demonstrates a complete lack of appreciation and understanding of just how corrupt and powerful the politicians are at the federal level. What's needed is to remove and/or reduce their power, not to increase it."
If in fact the fair tax was implemented as written it would reduce the power of Congress drastically, Congress will never voluntarily give up the power of Social engineering. To rid ourselves of the IRS, SS and the welfare state will require a revolt. Americans will only acquire a taste for that after they've lost the means.
Posted By: Jahfre Fire Eater
Date: July 29, 2010 08:27:02 AM
Hi 1deciple,
You asked the right question, "WHY ISN'T THE ENTIRE COUNTRY ON FIRE FOR IT???!" But then you continued on as if you already know the answer...which you obviously do not. Your answer amounts to, Because everyone is asleep, they need to WAKE UP. ROTFL!
Assuming that everyone would agree with you if they were awake is a self-limiting position because it forces you to attempt to wake them up. Guess what? Most people ARE awake, and they disagree with you. Ohhh...now you have all kinds of constructive options that do not involve waking anyone up or resting on your arrogance that leads to your belief that the only possible reason your idea is not catching fire is because you are the only one in the whole country who is awake. Will you "wake up" and begin to treat dissenters as opponents in the war of ideas rather than asleep morons that you can ignore and dismiss by labeling them "asleep?" Probably not. In my experience faith-blinded evangelists ALWAYS think that everyone else is asleep; they continue on ranting about "waking up"...Ron Paul's poison fans and Alex Jones zombies still do this after 3 years of proving how useless and frustrating the "wake up" strategy is.
Anyway, Walt has provided great answers to your question but I doubt you asked the question because you wanted the answer...you just use that question as another ridiculous ploy to get folks to wake up. So, the ball is back in your court. Everyone is awake, most think the Fair Tax is a bad idea. Deal with it...or continue ranting and blogging but at least do so now with the knowledge that it is a fools mission and strategy you are executing.
-Jahfre Fire Eater
Posted By: silverscribbler
Date: July 30, 2010 06:48:13 AM
Before I give my position on fair tax, let me say that first and foremost, both the IRS and the Federal reserve must be abolished and the country put back on a gold and silver standard with Congress taking its Constitutional responsibility for coining money. Secondly, while Congress is given the privilege in the Constitutioin of "laying taxes," all such collected moneys should go through the states first, and an amendment can be made to accomplish that if necessary, although I don't think that is the case. The states should be collecting the money from the citizens and sending the appropriate amount to the federal government, not the other way around. (In our state, we have a clause to that effect as part of our sovereignty resolution.) If the federal government misbehaves, the states should withhold money. The states should manage their own entitlement programs, welfare programs, health care systems, education systems, and state militias. None of these were ever supposed to be in the hands of the federal government in the first place. The Federal government also needs to be divested of ALL property except for the area needed in DC for conducting the business of the government. Govt parks and national forests, etc., need to be put back into the management of private individuals. We could even be energy independent if we simply get the government out of private business and out of our lives where they have intruded far beyond reason or anything our forefathers could have imagined.
As to the fair tax, we are opposed to it and have written to this effect in other forums. There is nothing fair about a fair tax. Take for example someone like Warren Buffet. He spends a tiny fraction of his income on consumer goods or the things required for day to day living. On the other hand, the common person who has spent their entire life trying to survive and maybe save a small amount for retirement, has to spend 70% or more of their income on things that would be subject to this fair tax. The tax would require that they either scale way back on their standard of living or that they simply don't bother to save--which puts them back at the mercy (not that there is such a thing) of a government for survival in retirement, for health care, for education, etc., and we are back where we started from--with a continuously growing and over-reaching nanny state.
A flat tax, on the other hand, which we have favored for years, but which no one talks about, should be used exclusively. All other taxes, both obvious and hidden taxes ( and there are thousands of hidden taxes) need to be eliminated. If everyone paid a simple flat tax of 12% of income with no deductions, no exclusions, no loopholes, the rich would be paying 12% of theirs, and the poor--who have less to work with--would also be paying 12%, which obviously would be less in terms of dollars than the rich. End this business of people paying no taxes whatsoever because of tax credits that give them tax refunds higher than any withholding that was ever done in the first place. No one should get a return higher than what they paid, but that's another issue. Perhaps legislation would have to be written that the government would never for any reason be able to take more than 12% or 15% or whatever amount was decided upon as fair and reasonable by the people. This money should be collected by the states. The states take care of their own business first and send the federal government the necessary amount. The federal government then needs to go back to what our founders set up in the first place--go back to having jobs, end this never ending disaster of writing new laws and legislation and regulations year in and year out. The federal government does not need to be in endless session where they do nothing but cater to lobbiests and dream up more ways to make their own lives ever cushier and the people ever more destitute.
Posted By: scottgreene
Date: July 30, 2010 11:35:49 AM
The Income Tax system has many problems.
It is made up of over 5 millions words and those words are then backed up by countless Revenue Rulings, followed by case after case after case after case after case in Tax Court where citizens and businesses hire lawyers to argue about what is taxable at what rates, what is deductible at what rates, what is deductible in certain circumstances and what is not deductible in other circumstances.
Certain actions get taxed at one percentage while other actions gets taxed at another percentage.
And these percentages are constantly changing.
It goes on and on and on and on.
And YOU are responsible for knowing it ALL.
If not, you are penalized at usurious penalty and interest rates.
Members of Congress and the current Administration can’t even follow the Income Tax code.
(Treasury Secretary Geithner did not even know how to correctly fill out his own personal Income Tax returns and now Congressman Charlie Rangel (who wrote Income Tax policy) allegedly also does not know how to correctly fill out his own personal Income Tax returns.
And today if you talk to the government officials in charge of the Income Tax, it is next to impossible to get a consistent answer to the exact same Income Tax question.
They don’t even know.
Why would anyone be in support of such a system that is based on “maybes” or “it depends” that only gets worse year after year after year?
Imagine how many additional millions of words and Revenue Rulings to explain those words there is going to be in another 10 years?
The Income Tax system is loaded with many many problems.
It NEVER improves.
It only gets more complicated, confusing, paper intensive and mind numbing.
It needs to be replaced now.
call it what you want, "sales taxes" are as old as the hills.
a sales tax is simply a tax on labor and materials. when you tax labor, you tax production. when you tax production you slow the economy and redistribute wealth from the producers to whoever the tax dollars are given to.
Posted By: jaws810
Date: August 4, 2010 03:54:23 AM
a sales tax is simply a tax on labor and materials. when you tax labor, you tax production. when you tax production you slow the economy and redistribute wealth from the producers to whoever the tax dollars are given to.
by the way, just how "fair" is it to tax labor?
This couldn't be further from reality, the FairTax is not a tax on labor or materials, it's a tax on CONSUMPTION, meaning that producers and laborers are not affected only the consumers of the products pay the tax on the final product at the retail level. Business to Business transactions are not taxed, used items are not taxed, labor is not taxed, productivity is not taxed. The consumer is the only person with the tax burden, so if you buy a lot of stuff you pay a lot of taxes, if you work overtime and save the money you earn your extra productivity is not taxed until you spend the money.
On the other side with the current income tax system you get penalized for working harder, if you work overtime to save some money you get taxed more and then the interest earned on the money you already payed taxes on gets taxed. Then businesses are taxed at every point of production which increases material cost and final product prices. Then there are the billions that Americans pay just to comply with the tax code. All this and more are the reasons that the income tax is a serious drag on the economy.
Posted By: jaws810
Date: August 4, 2010 04:30:37 AM
A flat tax, on the other hand, which we have favored for years, but which no one talks about, should be used exclusively. All other taxes, both obvious and hidden taxes ( and there are thousands of hidden taxes) need to be eliminated. If everyone paid a simple flat tax of 12% of income with no deductions, no exclusions, no loopholes, the rich would be paying 12% of theirs, and the poor--who have less to work with--would also be paying 12%, which obviously would be less in terms of dollars than the rich. End this business of people paying no taxes whatsoever because of tax credits that give them tax refunds higher than any withholding that was ever done in the first place. No one should get a return higher than what they paid, but that's another issue. Perhaps legislation would have to be written that the government would never for any reason be able to take more than 12% or 15% or whatever amount was decided upon as fair and reasonable by the people. This money should be collected by the states. The states take care of their own business first and send the federal government the necessary amount. The federal government then needs to go back to what our founders set up in the first place--go back to having jobs, end this never ending disaster of writing new laws and legislation and regulations year in and year out. The federal government does not need to be in endless session where they do nothing but cater to lobbyists and dream up more ways to make their own lives ever cushier and the people ever more destitute.
I totally agree that the Federal Government needs to stop growing get back to what the founders intended, but how can you say that and endorse any type of income tax. The founders were against any direct taxation, which is why we needed the 16th amendment. The founders meant for all federal revenue to come from tariffs and excise taxes, which is why a sales tax would not require a Constitutional amendment.
The form of taxation and the spending practices are 2 different subjects that need to be addresses separately.
OK, now the part of your post i highlighted does a good job at showing why the FairTax is better than the Flat Tax. OK everybody is treated the same with the Flat Tax but is that really fair to the poor people that use so much more of their income for necessities. The FairTax also treats everybody the same by giving them a prebate which is an advance refund on necessities based on family size, which means nobody will pay a net tax on a fixed level of purchases, and everybody pays the same above that level. In terms of dollars paid in taxes, with the FairTax, the rich will pay much more because they spend more, and the poor will pay less because they have less to spend, and another wonderful feature of the FairTax is that 40+ million visitors from other countries that spend money here on vacation and business trips will be paying taxes and they will not get a prebate. The FairTax may not be perfect but its benefits can beat any form of income tax any day.
I don't believe that a 12% flat tax would come anywhere close to covering the expenses of the Federal government. First exempt the first 20K per adult and 10K per child, and then we'd probably have to charge at least 30% on the rest... while treating capital gains the same as earned income.
Single adult who earns 30K a year pays 3K in taxes
Family of four who earns 90K a year pays 9K in taxes
Single adult who earns 70K a year pays 15K in taxes.
Family of four with combined income of 160K also pays 30K in taxes.
Single adult who earns 220K a year pays 60K in taxes.
Family of four with combined income of 310K pays 75K a year in taxes.
A tax system along these lines would be both relatively fair and relatively flat. With any of these systems though, you’re going to see a host of unintended consequences.
1. Home values would plummet as mortgage interest would no longer be a massive tax deduction.
2. Money donated to charities might decrease as tax incentives would disappear.
3. Tax advantages for diverting money into retirement funds and investing in the stock market via 401K and other mediums would also disappear causing unknown consequences.
There are a lot of carrots in place designed to get people to do things which are good... spend money on education, own thier own home, invest for retirement, ect... I'm not sure how we would adjust for that.
Posted By: FilmCriticOne
Date: March 8, 2011 10:12:44 AM
You are so right. I was a Fairtax cult member - till I saw the fine print. Not only are your objections all valid, you don't even know the half of it. In their fine print, are MASSIVE, and I mean MASSIVE hidden taxes, that they don't dare mention in their books, videos and speeches. Taxes that people would literally riot if they had to pay them. Fairtax leaders know this very well, and are not trying to pass their own plan.
Ever see the movie the Producers? Where these guys dream up some plan to have a play so bad, it can't possibly last past opening night? Then they are terrified it might last. Well, I kid you not, that is how Fairtax leaders are. They have such goofy fine print, and their taxes would be detested by nearly everyone -- that they avoid hearings under oath, and they are looking for a way to continue the farce, but not get examined under oath. IT's that goofy. http://fairtaxfineprint.blogspot.com/
