Topic: 1st Amendment
Non-Christians in a Christian Nation If one does not like living in a Christian nation, this is a column they probably shouldn't read.by Kevin Roeten
(conservative)
Thursday, August 20, 2009
Lately, it seems many Americans despise any Christianity in America. But the proof is overwhelming about our Christian heritage. There seems to be no other country rooted in Christianity. But our president, at a recent press conference in Turkey, flatly stated Americans "do not consider ourselves a Christian nation" The pertinent question is when did America stop being a Christian nation?
Recently on the floor of the House, Republican Randy Forbes (Va) on the Jennifer Kennedy video blog (Coral Ridge Ministries: Dr. D. James Kennedy) listed the American presidents who made it crystal clear and thought that Bible and Judeo-Christian principles were so important in this nation. He included George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, William McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Herbert Hoover, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, John Kennedy, and Ronald Reagan. H e didn't even include George Bush, who simply said his hero was Jesus Christ. Documentation from each one proves they knew America was Christian.
Fifty-two of the 55 Founders of the Constitution were members of established orthodox churches, and 26 had seminary degrees. Despite how anti-Christian our oldest college (HarvardUniversity) in the USis now, it's easily forgotten it was named after the Reverend John Harvard to train ministers of the gospel. Nine more of the oldest universities were started by Christians to spread the word of Christ [The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail: Kennedy and Newcombe, p.127].
John Adams, our 6th president, stated "The highest glory of the American Revolution wasthe principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." [Verna M. Hall/ The Christian History of the Constitution of the United States (p. 372)]. The US Supreme Court in 1892 declared "this is a Christian nation".
Larry Witham (Washington Times) in 1931 stated the SC noted the US was a Christian nation. In 1947, writing to Pope Pius XII, President Truman said flatly, "This is a Christian nation." [Christian Nation' Now Fighting Words/ Larry Witham/ Washington Times/ 11/23/92].
The so-called Establishment Clause in the Constitution clearly prohibited the creation of a national church, but it did not prohibit a state church. At the time of the American Revolution, nine of thirteen colonies had state churches. By the Constitutional Convention (1787), there were only five states with a state church. The last state church (Massachusetts) ceased in 1833.
Obviously, the Constitution never prohibited a state church, even though it's probably good we don't have one today. But James Madison, original Constitution framer, served on the committee that recommended the Congressional Chaplain System [Robert Cord/ Separation of Church and State: Historical Fact and Current Fiction, p. 23]. A wall in the Constitution between church and state would have made that unconstitutional.
Another illustration of the Founders attitude on church and state was that they repeatedly called for national days of fasting, prayer, and thanksgiving. There were no less than 16 days called during the Revolutionary War alone. It seems the national holiday of Thanksgiving was a direct result.
It's obvious that the Founders, who wrote the Constitution, understood it far differently than the interpretation it has received over the last few years. Do we in the twentieth century know better what this law means than those who actually passed it?
A very important document in our history passed by that same first Congress was the Northwest Ordinance. One of the principle founding documents in our history, along with the Articles of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, it gave the laws for the establishment of the Northwest Territory[The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail: Kennedy and Newcombe , p.141].
Later on, Congress said something very significant. They specifically said that no state seeking admission to the United States should have anything in its constitution that would be opposed to the language of the Northwest Ordinance. They state, "Religion, morality, and knowledge being essential to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." [The Battle for Religious Liberty, David C. Cook, 1982, p.81].
It should be emphasized that schools were stated to be established to teach Religion, which is the first word in that quote.
So many believe in Justice Hugo Black's incorrect interpretation of church-state separation from one letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association 50 years ago. The average person today probably thinks that the Constitution teaches the separation of church and state. This misinterpretation of the 1st Amendment effectively turned the 1st against religion, instead of protecting religion as it was designed.
If Christianity is that distasteful to some, it might be easier if one lived with non-Christian nations such as the Russians, Albanians, Iranians, Saudi Arabians, or the Chinese. Of course many are still wondering about the answer to "When did America stop being a Christian nation?"
The views expressed in this
article are those of Kevin Roeten only and do not represent
the views of Nolan Chart, LLC or its affiliates. Kevin Roeten is
solely responsible for the contents of this article and is not an
employee or otherwise affiliated with Nolan Chart, LLC in his/her role as a columnist.
Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2009-08-20 18:25:59
What a stereotypically black-and-white reaction you have to criticism of your religious views. The rest of us are either with Christianity (as you understand it) 100%, or we're against you 100%. There's no in-between in your view. How sad.
Posted By: Jahfre Fire Eater
Date: 2009-08-21 06:21:26
Hi Kevin,
It seems the Christians from our founding time were more tolerant and respectful of those of different faiths. Thankfully they were careful to absolutely ensure that this is NOT a "Christian nation," but rather, a nation that respects and protects religious freedom, including both Christianity and Atheism.
As a non-religious anti-religionist and staunch advocate of religious freedom, I have no problem living in the USA even if folks like you feel it necessary to proclaim it a "Christian Nation". Call it "God's Country", call it "Heaven" if you wish, it doesn't a matter what you call it so long as its laws protect me from your judgement, I'm happy here.
BTW, even if the population was entirely Christian except for me, I'd say your proclamation is wishful thinking. Also, without a change to our Constitution there is no guarantee that Christians will always be the majority here. However, even if you were the last Christian left in the USA you could still use your same snapshot reasoning to make the same claims you have in this article and still call the USA a "Christian Nation." So...what is your point?
Who criticized my views? I simply stated some facts about how this country enjoyed a thoroughly Christian heritage. Christianity is not just some fly-by-night religion. Either one believes that Chist was the biggest liar there ever was, or you realize that Jesus Christ truly was God, and he commands everything. Christ was always pretty black and white in everything He said.
Christians now are tolerant and respectful of all religions, at least for the most part. However, they also know which ones are just plain wrong. You also be tolerant of a religion without necessarily being repectful of it. I don't believe being "respectful" was written in the Constitution.
We know from history that this is a Christain nation. You can either be tolerant of Christians or move to one of the countries suggested. It's perfectly fine to jugge "actins" as good or bad, but no one can judge your eternal oucome. God does that alone. But it's OK for you to judge what God will determine yourm eternal outome to be.
It might be wishful thinking for you to have eternal life. I cannot judge that, however. I make no "claims" in my column. All of it is true and can be checked. Have you done that? When you do, it'll be up to you to believe what you want.
So tell me, because the US is/was Christian, where exactly does that leave you?
Another occasion to dredge out this classic quotation from the Founding Fathers:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." -- "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and the Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary" (commonly called the "Treaty of Tripoli"), negotiated under George Washington, signed by President John Adams after the Senate voted unanimously for ratification.
You'll have to let me know which founding father came up with this "classic quotation". You have to let me know if anyone else actually believed that. And you'll have to let me know who exactly called off any aggression against the Barbary pirates.
You seem to open up all kinds of questions, assuming of course, that the quotation is true. Wow, I hate to assume...
Either one believes that Chist was the biggest liar there ever was, or you realize that Jesus Christ truly was God, and he commands everything. Christ was always pretty black and white in everything He said.
Then you say:
You seem to open up all kinds of questions, assuming of course, that the quotation is true. Wow, I hate to assume...
Make up your mind! You yourself ASSUMED the accounts of what Jesus said and did are even remotely accurate, despite their being written several decades after the events they describe and after the death of the one so extensively quoted. Even today's newspapers occationally get a story wrong!
Your hypocrisy and blind ignorance are so blatant that no one here need take your seriously.
While the United States may CULTURALLY may be a Christian dominated nation, it still has a SECULAR government by our Constitution, just as Turkey is culturally Muslim but also has a secular government. So politically Turkey is closer to the United States than it is to Iran or Saudi Arabia, two nations with theocratic governments, even though they are also Muslim.
Roeten, your failure to note that distinction means you don't know what you were writing about.
There's no ambiguity. I simply posed the two possible options. You likely know the one I chose. I likely know the one you chose.
Evidently you don't seem to realize that getting the story correct after 2000 years MEANS something.
No one I know discounts anything that happened to Jesus. I wonder why? You need to get that cloud away from obscuring your vision. You know whose putting that cloud there?
If you read every quote more closely, look at the inscriptions on our money, read that every president the US has had has discussed God in his inaugural address, you will note that any secular government is GUIDED by God.
If you're asking God to show you the right way, you don't need to be in a theocracy. I guess your failure to note that obvious detail means some terrible things. I'll be you can think of a few yourself...
First of all, Kevin, let me say you've done an excellent job of responding to criticism of your article, while avoiding the issue. This, I hope, will change:
After you've read that, tell me if you know anything better. We are a Christian nation just as much as we are a Muslim nation, a Judaic nation, or a Wiccan nation. How can all these religious ideals coexist at once?
Because they also coexist with pagan secularism.
This isn't to say your facts are completely wrong, simply misinterpreted. But as this link shows, many of our founders were indeed Christian, but openly criticized the religion as well as its theocratic administrators.
The popular misconception conservatives like to raise is always the "founding" history. The truth is all 55 of the framers were deists. This means they could hold Christian beliefs, while not necessarily all being Christian themselves.
As the article I linked to you says, times and definitions have changed. Therefore, our perception is nothing more than a myth that has not been updated to reflect with the truth. Nature's God, as is repeatedly referred to in the Declaration of Independence and other early government documents, refers not to a personal god, or the triune god, but a natural god.
You must be familiar that Jefferson himself was a Deist, more fascinated with science than religion. Democracy and republicanism are not actually Christian tenets at all; they're pagan, having started in the ancient golden age of Greece.
The idea that the minority must be protected from persecution is no more a Christian ideal than it is a pagan one, which could arguably hold exclusive rights to that claim by the sheer fact that Abrahamic religion is a fairly new invention.
Christians trumpet the fact that many leaders were in fact Christian, and that it says so even on our money. Those are merely recent, though outdated reactions from the Cold War and a period of America's internal identity crisis. Indeed, when "God We Trust" and the debate of Christianity's dominance in public life first garnered attention was during the early 50's soon after the launch of the Arms Race and McCarthyism.
Meanwhile, we fashioned DC not once, but twice, to be symbols of ancient republics and democracies: chiefly, Rome and Greece. We do not have representations of Christ (as such is clearly prohibited by the 10 commandments anyway) outside our government buildings, but instead depictions of the ancient goddess Themis- a deity of justice.
But most important of all to understand the founders' original intent was how they viewed the word "pagan" in the first place. They didn't copy pagan religious ideals, but still it is nearly impossible to divorce what they did do from contemporary pagan philosophy. In doing so, they forged a secular republic, the first of its kind, with the largest scope tried anywhere, not to protect or even enforce any religion whatsoever. But the ideas that tolerance can allow other cultures to coexist long predates Christianity.
First of all Adrian, let me say your vain attempt to convince people that Christianity had nothing to do with the founding of this nation was admirable, despite the fact that you only had one source to base info from.
The article, you cited was filled with misinterpretations, incorrect info, needless to say was from only one source. I guess that source wasn't Christian, was he?
His first major mistake was to take the Declaration and claim that "Laws of Nature" and "Nature's God" somehow is interpreted to be "pagan". If Jesus Christ was THE God, then He is the God who made nature. That stands to reason. It's obvious as well.
His thinking becomes obvious when he actually mentions 'the "alleged" Jesus'. I wonder who got into his way of thinking? Oh wait, I know...
All those religions you discussed may be secularistic, but they exist for one reason only. What you said about the Founders might be true, and all of them were probably not totally Christian--but must WERE. Time to admit that.
I hoped you used more than one source to conclude that a natural God was a pagan one. I'm afraid that you've confused an identity crisis with Christianity somehow. Just who's been feeding you this info? Care to name any names?
Maybe you see something I can't see--ancient gods and goddesses on the SC building. And you know what the founders' original intent is? I hope you're using more than that one source. I can read their writings, but I wasn't there to determine their intent first hand. You were??
Many relics and belifes predate Chistianity. It's relatively new--only 2000 years old. I'm afraid you'll have to do a lot better than you've done making your case.
If you have any questions regarding and specific item you mentioned, just let me know.
I'm sorry if I don't trust your opinion of vanity or egocentric psychology at all. Your arguments here are all engendered to argue your points solely on whatever grounds you make up, not objectivity. Your opening mimicry just shows as much.
Just because I start out with one source doesn't mean one source is all I have. I simply used one that had a greater concentration of my points.
The fact that you frequently understate my opinion and have misread several other replies here tells me one thing: faith is more important to you than reading comprehension.
As up above, where Dan Clore cited a quote from Washington, you somehow failed to see and went on to ask which founding father said that.
You misconstrued Dale's comments once again on your own fabricated logic, as if he was positing a question of biblical literalism.
And then, to top it all off, you proved you didn't read the article from beginning to end, as the author in my link goes on to say that he is a Christian and that the article is primarily for satirical purposes. This is not to discredit the educational impact of it, however.
Yet, in case I should stop here, and show you mercy - something you should be quite familiar with- your ignorance goes onto ignore the originalist conservative perspective, which is a subset of traditional conservative political and judicial interpretation.
In a word, originalism is how we know what words meant at the time. It's a process that can also be deciphered by syntax and universal grammar, but I won't go on a diatribe about something you can't understand. But if it's anything you take away from this, I want you to google it.
It is not he that got his facts wrong, by the way. A natural god is not the same as a personal god. Both are exclusive theories, not to be construed as fact. That is why you must think rationally and not use faith-based arguments next time.
Hey, you don't have to trust my opinion. I've only got a few billion others that agree with it. Oh, maybe there's a few more That first number was only Catholics.
OK, so you have 2 sources. I still think I've got you outnumbered 20 to 1. If Clore was actually Christian, my bad. He made some points and I refuted them quite logically. I guess it really doesn't matter what side of the fence he was on. You likely got the point. Hey, tell me, was his name Dale or Dan? It seems like your assessment of his article was all-encompassing!
I guess if you wanted to use any of his erroneous points, the educational impact of the column disintegrated a while back.
You don't seem to have the originalist conservative perspective, so how exactly would you know what that is? Are you assuming again? You know what they say about ASS-U-ME, don't you?
I do find it very difficult to understand how a person can be presented with so much information, refuse to believe it, and go on to believe something else. Go figure...
It seems that when one thinks rationally, he normally goes with the preponderence of the evidence. What happened with you?
Posted By: patrick henry
Date: 2009-08-25 12:50:53
\"If you read every quote more closely, look at the inscriptions on our money, read that every president the US has had has discussed God in his inaugural address, you will note that any secular government is GUIDED by God.\"
This is an untrue statement. Read Jefferson's inuagural address, he never mentions God once, although he mentions Providence and the Infinite Power once each. He mentions religion four times. I would argue, you would have to bemaking the same \"presumptions\" you rail about to equate Providence and the Infinite Power with your God or Prophet.
\"Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions.\"
\"enlightened by a benign religion, professed, indeed, and practiced in various forms, yet all of them inculcating honesty, truth, temperance, gratitude, and the love of man; acknowledging and adoring an overruling Providence\"
\"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political\"
\"the diffusion of information and arraignment of all abuses at the bar of the public reason; freedom of religion; \"
\"And may that Infinite Power which rules the destinies of the universe lead our councils to what is best, and give them a favorable issue for your peace and prosperity.\"
Notice that none of the Founding documents mention God, it mentions Divine Providence and Natures God, also it is THEIR creator and not THE Creator.
\"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof\" this means any law respecting an establishment of any religion, whether Christian, Muslim or non-believers.
To state that at the Founding the majority of the members belonged to churches (most the church of england, modern day Episcopalians) makes them Christians is absurd and fanciful. In the colonies in order to be a person of affluence one had to belong to the Church, much like belonging to the Communist or Nazi Party respectively.
But even if the Founders where Christians, they specifically did not create a Christian theocracy, no matter how badly you want it to be so.
Please don't tell me you were as hung up as Adrian was! I made no presumptions about Jefferson. I wasn't there at the time. Actually, neither were you.
Just what do you think "Providence" and "Infinite Power" means?? You don't offer any suggestions.
Read what I said again. I said the most of the Founding Fathers (those that emigrated to America) were clergy in their churches. That doesn't necessarily mean the Church of England. That means whatever Christian church they belonged to when they came over.
You didn't assume they either belonged to the Church of England, or the Nazi party, or the Communist party, did you??
Another fabricated point---that the Founders created a Christian "theocracy". Maybe you'd better reread my column again, and get it right this time...
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