Topic: Constitutional Issues
34 and 38 : How to legally dissolve the U.S. Federal Government A Constitutional Explanation of how to legally dissolve the U.S. Federal Government.by Skip Sanders
(libertarian)
Wednesday, July 22, 2009
Thirty four (34) is the number of Legislatures from the several States necessary to call a States Convention or a Constitutional Convention. This also known as an Article Five(5) Convention, or a Convention to Amend the U.S. Constitution. With fifty (50) States in the U.S. Federal Compact today, thirty four (34) is the Constitutional number of legislatures from the several States needed to cross the threshold for such a convention.
Let's look at Article 5 of the U.S. Constitution :
"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate. "
Thirty eight (38) is the number of legislatures from the several States that is necessary to ratify and thus amend the U.S. Constitution after such a convention. This amendment could be "to dissolve". By "dissolve" I mean the whole compact between the several States. Yes, the entire Federal Government and every thing it has or was created under it's jurisdiction. This would include but is not limited too, the Federal Debt, the Federal Reserve Bank, the FDIC, the Department of Education, the Department of Homeland Security, the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines, etc. etc... Think of it as a Constitutional self destruct mechanism.
This would leave the fifty (50) several States and the numerous Federal Territories, sovereign and under their own rightful and direct jurisdiction. Of course each State or Territory would then be free to individually or in groups engage in new compacts and trade arrangements. That is up to them to decide at a further date.
I know this information is very powerful and the far reaching ramification of such a decision may be a little hard for the reader to grasp or understand at first glance. I openly admit that I am not capable of understanding all the possibilities or consequences of such a decision. That being said, please allow me to entertain some ideas that immediately come to mind.
The Federal Reserve and Federal Reserve Notes are gone. The National Debt under the Federal Governments' promise to pay, evaporates Of course the IRS and all Federal Taxes. Social Security , Medicare and all that has been promised, owed or collected. Any claim to Federal Park Lands, highways, military bases, equipment, buildings, assets of any kind inside the several States. Any and all Federal agreements or treaties such as NATO, the UN, WTO, NAFTA,CAFTA, GAT and so on. I invite the readers to speculate and comment on any of the challenges or possibilities that could result if such a course was taken.
I will leave you with this final thought, "That which has been created can NOT be greater than the creator." It is time for the people through their several State Governments assert their power over the Federal Government over which they created. 100% Legally with pen and paper!
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The views expressed in this
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Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2009-07-22 08:43:41
How do you know that the aspects of the government you want eliminated (and I share your wish regarding them) won't be codified into the Constitution permanently via an Article V convention? This is the fly in the ointment that advocates of such a convention routinely overlook. It's not like the majority of the population have a track record for routinely supporting the eliminations you and I favor. To the contrary, they routinely vote against what you and I favor.
Nor are the politicians, who will run such a convention, on our side. They are on the side of statism in all its forms.
I get quite discouraged when I read so many articles favoring an Article V convention by people who don't do the basic math necessary to calculate how such a convention would likely work out. Until the vast majority of Americans start to think the way we think, an Article V convention would work against our best interests, not for them.
The author is mistaken. Article V cannot be used to "dissolve" the federal government. He cites the language of Article V then ignores it. It states an amendment shall be "part of this Constitution." This means no matter what amendment is passed, it becomes part of the present Constitution. Period.
The present Constitution creates the federal government and therefore the federal government cannot be dissolved because the Constitution that creates it cannot be dissolved.
However amendments can be used to redress the issues of the government and those have been proposed by the states.
If you want to know if this author knows what he's talking about, ask yourself one question: why does he not say instead of 34 states are needed say all 50 states have submitted 750 applications for a convention far in excess of the number required.
Why does he not discuss those applications and what they would do to solve the problem? Why does he effectively say let's start over again and submit a new set of applications.The answer is obvious: he doesn't know what he's talking about or instead he would talking about what do with a convention and how it will address the issues.
True, the only way to dissolve the union with a pen is by each state drafting a bill of seccession and passing it through their legislative bodies. The Fed tends to get violent when they do this, though.
Posted By: Steven A. Rosile
Date: 2009-07-22 17:32:09
All 50 states seceding at the same time through whatever means has been proposed before. This would be a fairly straightfoward transaction if the states still had Constitutional money, i.e., gold and silver coin as the Constitution mandates. The individual states' economies would be able to function as trade and commerce could go on. However, with the union disolved and the states independent again, what will they use for money? How will debts be paid, contracts be honored? The Fed has stolen our gold and silver and left us with worthless paper. That is a problem that must be addressed by Congress, which owns no stock in the Fed but has the right to buy it all up anytime it wishes to exercise the option (per the terms of the Federal Reserve Act) or a Article V Convention. This is the action that must be taken at some point. It, along with the restoration of gold and silver coin as money, are the only way that the liberties of the people and our economy will once again work as the Framers intended. An Article V Convention can propose amendments (as can Congress) but they must be ratified by 3/4s of the states before they take effect. As more and more people become aware of the evils of paper money and the Federal Reserve we may be able to put pressure on Congress to take the necessary measures or an Article V Convention may be necessary to make it happen.
Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2009-07-24 06:11:58
Bill Walker: You make me laugh. Article V can't be used to dissolve the union? Try reading the Articles of Confederation, which contained Article XIII, the amendment article. It read:
"Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State."
So the Articles of Confederation couldn't be voided unless all 13 states voided it. Of course, that didn't stop the advocates of the Constitution. They declared it approved (and the Articles of Confederation dissolved) by just 9 out of 13 states.
You may claim that the Articles were nulled and voided once all 13 states ratified the Constitution. However, if you get to be "word perfect" in your interpretation of the Constitution, certainly the Articles should get the same level of respect. They didn't. No motion to dissolve the Articles of Confederation was ever made, to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, in theory they are still in effect. In theory.
And that's the rub. In theory, the Constitution can never be dissolved. In practice, that's rubbish. It's also not likely to happen, just as an Article V convention is not likely to happen (unless the powers that be think they can permanently codify some of the unconstitutional rubbish they've previously passed into law).
An "Article V convention" may not be able eliminate the Constitution, but it could provide for de facto dissolution of Federal Gov't by "wiping the constitutional slate clean" (e.g. could leave basic structure in place, but remove all power from Fed. Gov't.). The triggering point for "dissolving" Fed. Gov't should be when Fed. Gov't first defaults on any loan payment (an indication that the current "stucture" is not capable of operating in a responsible and competent manner.
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