Topic: National Security
Mandatory Military service and the effects it would have on society If the United States of America passed a bill requiring mandatory military service to all people upon leaving high school, what would be the effects on our society?by P Hedt
(libertarian)
Monday, December 15, 2008
It would raise patriotism and educational standards. It would make citizens take a higher interest in world affairs and politics. It would make society in general stronger, both physically and mentally, and it would make our government officials less trigger-happy. Foreign countries would be less likely to attack America and it would become impossible to take our great country over. Our society would be completely reformed back into a strong nation again.
Upon leaving high school men and women are required, by law, to join the military for at least two years. There is no choice in the matter; if they don't go they get the same rights as a felon. Yes, when a person goes into the military they lose certain rights for a little while, but is that necessarily bad? No. If they have never had their basic rights taken from them they will never place as high a value on those rights, or on the sacrifice their ancestors made to give them those rights. It is a growing problem in America for people to take their rights for granted. Take peoples rights away temporarily and people start to value what they have more; and they start to value their country more. Patriotism will be on the rise.
The men and women that leave high school will have to get an assessment test on their knowledge and intelligence levels. Naturally, they studied hard in school so that they could place high and choose what job they would have; so they could choose where they would be on the battlefield. Of Course, they (and their parents) would take school more seriously they do now, their futures would depend on it. These days a high school diploma is just a pretty decoration you get after twelve years of being babysat. People would become more serious about how their children were taught. How much money and supplies would schools receive in order to teach their children? A lot more then they do now. How much respect would teachers finally receive? A lot more then they do now. Hoe many children would get lost in the shuffle educationally? A lot less then they do now.
After selecting or being placed into a field, the people would go to basic training. This would install discipline, physical fitness, pride, and self-esteem. It would teach them that they could achieve anything they set their minds to. How many people in America could use those traits? Our society would shed the flabby Athenian traits and become a well oiled Spartan machine. How many Americans could have benefited from those four traits when they were first starting out in life? How far would America be today if we were all physically and mentally fit when we first started out?
After going through basic training, they would be required to serve at least two years in the armed forces. In that amount of time, they get to travel the world, learning about other cultures and world events. They gain a wealth of knowledge from their travels. They learn that the rest o the world does not have it as good as we do, and to not take our great nation for granted. They carry this knowledge about world events and cultures with them to teach their children, making the world less America centric to Americans.
Because people would be required to become physically fit, (in order to survive in the military) obesity levels in America would drop causing medical problems associated with it to drop. In addition Americans would be near impossible to surprise because they would all be knowledgeable of combat techniques. No one would dare attempt an invasion, because every man women and child would know how to defend themselves.
The presidents children are in the military; congresses children are in the military. How fast would they be to go to war with the knowledge that their children would be deployed? Not as fast as they were willing to in the past. The government would defiantly become more willing to look at other options before leaping headfirst into a major conflict. There would be more protests from congress if the president went crazy and decided to charge into a foreign country.
The effects of making military service mandatory are numerously good. A chain reaction would take place and American society would reform itself. We would become less ignorant of the world around us. Fewer people would burn flags and take America for granted. American government would be less likely to jump into a war. The children would not be lost educationally and schools would receive better funding. Obesity levels would drop dramatically, reducing health problems associated with unhealthy lifestyle. America would become stronger, mentally and physically due to a chain of events created by making military service mandatory.
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I took three days of military jail during my military service in France in the early 90s for taking a 72-hour leave during an election and not bringing back the proof that I had voted.
From there, I moved from being a radical free-market conservative to Libertarian. A few years later, I became an anarchist.
I have also left France and, ever since, I am doing my best to collect citizenships and passports for my kids so that they have a better chance to avoid the military slavery. Obviously, the American citizenship is not a prime target!
Government is crime and it is always good to know that those who want to kill human beings legally can always join the Army.
That is complete non-sense. You want our kids that are being subjected to 12 years of government indoctrination to be submittet to 2 more years of slavery, servitude and brainwashing? Forced military service is the state ownership of its citizens. Slavery is supposed to be abolished by the Constitution. Forced military service is slavery.
With regards to the children of those in Congress, most of them are already grown up. Those children who will be serving will be placed in specific non-life-threatening positions in the military with no real risk and given a preferential treatment. The children of most Congressmen will NEVER go to war.
Trigger happy? The Government will always be trigger happy. The World Wars and the Vietnam War happend under forced military service and all Governments were trigger happy nevertheless.
Patritism is not necessary a good thing. Patriotism could bea disease.
If you want your children to go to the military, it should be THEIR choice. Not your choice, not my choice and most certainly not the Government's choice.
As bad as the U.S. is, I feel that it is the least bad with regards to freedom. Maybe I am naive in thinking that way but I feel there are still some freedoms left here to enjoy while they last. What other places you had in mind? Please give us suggestions.
As far as I know the only place with real anarchy is Antartica - but who wants to live there? Also the other place right now is Somalia but the state of anarchy has been replaced by the tyranical rule of warlords.
Posted By: Jahfre Fire Eater
Date: 2008-12-15 07:24:38
Hi P Hedt,
Your idea sounds like a great plan to provide incentives for the best and brightest along with those who champion individual liberty to leave the USA to its Spartan death-training camps.
Why not put high school grads in leg irons and make them clean up the trash along the road or build roads through primitive back-country? I mean, if you consider humans to be the property of the state, why waste them on things like making it less likely for foreign countries to attack the USA? In case you've been asleep for the past 70 years, that really isn't a big problem for us. Why use all that government owned manpower for unproductive purposes? The slaves to the state should at least be used to "do work that Americans will not do" displacing the illegal immigrants in the produce fields. Maybe a shackled group could even be loaned by the US Military to private corporations to flip burgers or collect shopping carts from parking lots. Not a saggy pants among them. American shoppers and burger munchers would be so proud.
I think you are being very short-sighted. Once you decide that individuals belong to the state, using them for military service is a pretty lame primary purpose. Think big man, you're talking about enslaving every young person in America. Don't limit your vision to the military, THINK BIG!!
Posted By: Mrs. Fire Eater
Date: 2008-12-15 07:42:36
This is a Libertarian? No wonder I'm a Republican. I mean, this was downright confusing until I read the fire eater comment and now I know this is just a very tiny thinker. Thanks, JFE!
I'd like to use my rented gov't whore for... hm... takin' out the trash. I hate that job. And doing the laundry, and... well, that's it. I guess I'm a pretty tiny thinker, too.
trd, I have no other suggestion. Right now I am in Canada. My kids are safer there than in the US since there is no tradition of draft, or military service. Well, that may well change. I lived 8 years in the USA and I don't think there is more freedom in the USA. The idea that the President of the USA is the "leader of the free world" is pure military propaganda.
When reading the article, I thought the writer was ironic. But, I am realizing he might not be and he may actually believe his words. Maybe P Hedt could clarify this point.
If he really believes in his words, let's hope he will have the decency to volunteer before having his kids killed for government crooks. Also, I would hope his kids will precede the kids of those of oppose military service.
I didn't said that US has more freedoms. I said that I think is the least bad on freedom restrictions. If Canada works for you, then good. It is all about choices. But I didn't know that Canada was planing to do a military draft since you were stating that it may change the tradition of no draft.
Now with regards to military alone, then the only country with no military force other than thier local police is Costa Rica. They have no draft and no voluntary military either. But in the event of a foreign invasion, I am pretty sure they will use their local police. So the same people that will give you speeding tickets will be those who will defend their nation against invasion. It seemed like a nice place that at least appeared to be free, but I have only been there for one day about 15 years ago so I really can't do a good comparison. On the other countries that I have been (about 20) I think U.S. is still the least bad.
Entrepreneurs in the online Sports booking or betting industries have moved there becaue of ther lack of regulation. So maybe Costa Rica is more free than US or Canada, but there is no way to know until we actually live there.
For now my first choice is still the U.S. but I could consider Costa Rica in the near future.
We may think the grass is greener on the other side but ¿how do we know for sure? We may move to greener pastures only to realize that it may even be worst. Then you ads all the respective government immigration laws that makes it difficult to really move to your place of choice. So most people are stuck where they are born as if they had a contract enslaved with the birth state without even agreeing to such contract.
If you fear a military draft in Canada, maybe your kids could start learning Spanish and move to sunny tropical Costa Rica!
Obama's chief of staff Rahm Emanuel proposes 3 months of mandatory service for everyone between the ages of 18 and 25. Charles Rangel has written legislation for 2 years of mandatory service for everyone between the ages of 18 and 41. In both cases the service could be community service as well as military.
So now I have to ask; what is the difference between mandatory service and involuntary servitude? Let me answer my own question; there is no difference. Mandatory service is involuntary servitude.
The 13th amendment banned slavery and involuntary servitude. That was a very good thing and because of it Obama can be the president of the United States instead of a cotton picker on a Georgia plantation. How ironic it would be if he passed a law which in effect overturned that amendment.
Great article. Now to the part where they don't want to go because they don't want to shoot a gun.. For those we should have civil service. Same difference, no weapons. Working instead inside a combat related field, they could work in the VA Hospital, care for the elderly, work in child care centers etc.. Just a thought. I am from Germany, we have mandatory service.
Posted By: Andrew Hughes
Date: 2009-01-21 03:11:42
Mr Hedt,
While I agree that physical fitness and mental discipline are very desirable qualities which can be achieved without a military training, the only real consequence of a draft would involve killing more poor, brown people in Iraq, Afghanistan and maybe soon, Iran and Pakistan. After the pain and mental anuish, the destruction of American families, the maltreatment of veterans who have been shipped back to "The World" after witnessing horrors beyond our imaginations, all we are left with is another lost generation akin to that during the Vietnam era. Would it not be more productive and humane to bring forth a new generation of educated men and women by reforming the way they are taught in school ?
I have seen young men and women in Minnesota that had passed through the farce that passes for "education" and I found their brainwashed minds incapable of independent thinking and a woeful lack of knowledge about the world outside of the U.S..When I asked them what they were going to do after high school, the majority told me that they wanted to join the military and protect their country. A patriotic thought, but sadly ignorant of the fact that America does not need their protection. It's the rest of the world that needs protection from them.
We constantly are willing to sacrifice our liberties and freedoms for the sake of security. Manditory Millitary Service is the same concept and would lead to a total loss of liberty. We would be virtually undefeatable but have virtually no freedom. I say (and I know its over quoted) 'give me liberty or give me death"
This is bizzarre! I'm 18 and just about to graduate from high school. The idea of mandatory service is not even close to freedom, it goes against everything this country stands for. Put yourself in my shoes, nobody forced you into the military, you got your choice, your freedom, don't claim to be doing your country a favor by standing in the way of mine.
-kutlessgirl01 (A.K.A. the very person your tring to imprison)
Please, remember what Spartan life was like and how Sparta collapsed. Their system was not humane or sustainable. The role and purpose of people in military service takes taxes, it is not to generate/create money/wealth to sustain the economy. This will likely lead to more than just manipulating statistics (i.e. change unemployment rates). It seems much like the communist/socialist/totalitarian state plans that have destroyed so many nations before.
The only real hope is returning to our (American up until the 20th Century) roots in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and following His command to love God with everything that is in us and our neighbor as ourselves. Christ is the only foundation upon which free society can exist. If you have not read the Bible, please, take time to read it. If you want help in understanding it, listening to Paul Washer or John Piper at www.sermonaudio.com could be useful.
If you desire liberty, seek Christ. We are all slaves of sin until we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The only hope apart from Him is the Lake of Fire, which is undesirable, or some temporal carnal pleasure, which also leads to the wrath of God in Hell. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Repent and believe in the Christ Who was sent to redeem His people (i.e. His bride). He spared no expense, He gave everything. Oh, to know the love of the Lord. The peace and joy from Him are too wonderful to be able to fully describe.
If you believe already and are not growing in the knowledge of the Truth (God's Word), read, pray and fellowship with a local assembly of believers where God's Word is central (not just another reference book or footnote). If you do not see the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance) in your life and you are thereby not living the Gospel before others, call upon the Lord for aid and seek His kingdom first. If we do not preach the Gospel of our Lord crucified, dead, buried and raised from the dead according to the Scriptures, then we are asking for freedom to be taken away. Remember, until born again, people are still sinful by nature and only feel comfortable in sin. The preaching of the Gospel and the quickening of the Spirit of God's people is the way God tells us that the dead (in spirit) are brought to life and given a new nature (heart) that delights in pleasing Him. What a blessing for Him to have given us such a wonderous part of His ministry of grace. Teaching and preaching repentence, unto salvation, is something that cannot be done once we die and are in Heaven. Praise Him evermore!!!
You have to wonder though, wouldnt some of the things Hedt says happen? like our country would be in better shape and more considerate of what we get involved in. Iraq and Afghanistan probably wouldnt have happened if Bush had to have sent his own daughters to the Middle East. Its all a matter of balance. Mandatory military service is everywhere. South Korea has it, Germany has it, why dont we have it?
(Im a senior in an AP government class so please correct me if my view is flawed)
Posted By: Donald Meinshausen
Date: 2009-11-08 18:39:32
The libertarian's dramatic beginning was a draft card burning according to Radical's for Capitalism. I organized this event to show that we are not slaves of the state. If there is ever a draft again then I would organize a revolution. Do not call yourself a libertarian. You are a fascist and I ask that every libertarian spit in your face unless you are joking.
I have to partially agree, only in a more specfic vein. I personally feel that there should be Federal service in exchange for franchise and the ability to hold office. if you dont want to serve that is fine. absolutely, own a business be rich be happy. but dont vote and dont run for office. As heinlein said in starship troopers (the book not the movie) "its a matter of civic duty, those willing to die for the body politic have shown they are willing to do what is best for the whole over what is best for the individual." Those are the people that should have the right to vote and hold office, not lawyers and the rich. they have no true conception of how their choices affect the many, Nor do they seem to care.
It is interesting to hear all of the arguments against this idea, and the lack of complete knowledge surrounding the Armed forces. Many of these arguments discuss enslavement of Americans, and the endangerment of people who do not want to be a part of combat. There are over 150 different kinds of jobs in the Army alone, and only 24 of these jobs are considered combat positions. The Army has jobs in nearly every field available in the civilian world, and these jobs come along with physical, mental, social, and networking skills that are unrivaled in any other type of education or occupation. It is unfortunate that people misunderstand the valuable experience that military service can provide for growing men and women, and our country would be much more successful if people realized the opportunities they were missing.
Posted By: terry jernagan
Date: 2010-02-27 14:32:03
Great idea that's the way it should be you want to live in this country you should have to serve it sure won''t do any harm make them grow up take responsibility freedom is not free. If Obama would have served maybe he would know how to lead
This is a joke right? How dare you call yourself a libertarian and then advocate that the freedom of an adult 18 year old citizen be trampled upon because the goverment wants them for 2 years. That is not freedom; that is not choice. We might as well live in communist China if the state is going to decide what I do w/ my own life, even if it is just for 2 years. In the 2 years I would be wasting my time working for Uncle Sam I would be halfway through my undergrad degree, studying what I choose and following whatever passions I may have. If I have a passion for civil service or military service, then I will seek that out. But if I have a passion or desire to be an accountant, then you're delaying me from reaching that goal. And when you stand in my way of pursuing my choices, my right to freedom, you are going against everything this country stands (stood?) for.
No thank you, sir. I'll keep my freedom and choice intact thank you very much.
I agree that a 2 year education in the armed forces would not only help protect our nation but it would provide some learned behavior that is lacking in today\'s society. First, self-discipline. Secondly, personel responsibility. Thirdly, structure. I went into the military right out of high school for 4 years and ended up staying for 20. Contrary to a lot of misconceptions the military is not slave labor. Some people are just to ignorant to understand that. Most of the time it was a 9 to 5 job that required the wearing of the uniform. You learned not to burn the flag but salute it. It has flown for you for 200 years. People can surely find the entrance to America. I hope some can find the exit. Its the only institution that has got it right WITH government running the show.
Taking our rights for granted is not necessarily a bad thing, because those rights ARE granted (by God, if you are a believer, or by way of natural rights otherwise). They ARE our birthright as Americans. They do not need to be earned; a "right" granted by government after the person in question jumps through certain hoops (military service, payment of a fee, et cetera) is not a right at all, but a privilege. That is not to say that it is not the duty of the citizen to protect those rights (not only his own, but those of others, including those whose viewpoints he might find reprehensible), but no specific action shall ever be required to exercise a right.
Military service is not slavery unless one has not joined freely (volunteer service would more properly be called indentured servitude). To be conscripted is to be enslaved. If you don't have sovereignty over your own person, then you are the property of whomever makes the decisions for you.
If someone else has the right to demand that I serve them, whether that person be a plantation owner or the federal government, then they own me and I am a slave. The fact that they treat me relatively well (such as in a 9-5 job) while denying me the right to leave is not the issue. A slave that is treated well, but who cannot opt out of the arrangement at any time, is still a slave.
Funny that one of the posters above brought up "Starship Troopers." What better example of fascism exists in fiction? Rights that need to be earned are PRIVILEGES. If we need to earn rights, we HAVE NO RIGHTS.
America stands for freedom. It was founded upon that principle by men who did not even support the idea of a standing army. Certainly, they did not confuse military service with liberty; they made it quite clear that we are endowed with inalienable (permanent and unquestioned) rights by our creator (whomever you think that may be). Even if you are an atheist, you get the idea-- these rights are bigger than any rules that man can make, and no man or government can ever supersede them by any means.
I have the greatest respect for those who CHOOSE to serve in the armed forces, but conscription is the polar opposite of liberty and any country which stands for liberty.
No libertarian would ever support mandatory servitude-- this one opinion, in and of itself, is a disqualifier for being a libertarian. It indicates clearly a worldview that is wholly incompatible with libertarian thought. I think the original author should think long and hard and consider whether he really means the answers he gave in the questionnaire-- I think he probably does not believe the answers he gave, because to get a score in the libertarian range, one must answer that he believes in rights that shall not be questioned by government, which is clearly not what he believes if he thinks those rights can and should be denied during involuntary servitude or for the rest of the person's life if he refuses to serve. He clearly does not believe that rights (including, but not limited to, those protected by the Bill of Rights) supersede all acts of government and law. That's kinda the main thing in libertarianism.
Of course, I may be reading the author's words wrong. Perhaps he meant that a person who declines military service would have the same rights as a felon-- meaning a person who has completed whatever sentence due process has imposed-- which is to say, all the same rights he started out with before he was found guilty, without exception.
I served 22 years the the US Army. It was the best thing I have done in my life. I have seen the world . And yes I have been in combat. And I love the U.S.A. WE sould all go over seas for your country.
I have believed this for years; that U.S. citizens should either give two years of military service or humanitarian service in order to receive any state or government help for college funding. I have three grown children who do not understand what they have since it has been given to them so easily (not by me but by government). They are basically good kids but just take so much for granted. (Yea, I guess we all did when we were young.) But isn't that what is wrong now? We took too much for granted? I am in my late 40's and have had it pretty easy. Not rich, not poor but have had everything I need. Not really paying attention to the House and Senate are doing. Not really knowing or caring about the issues of the day (until just in the last few years). Didn't even vote for the first time until recent years (yes, I am ashamed). All this and yet I graduated valedictorian and have a college degree. I fear that there are many like me because I simply 'didn't care' about my country, I cared about me and my own. Of course I regret my lackadaisical attitude but if I had been co-erced to serve my country in some way, maybe I would have WOKE UP a long time ago and not let things in congress get as bad as they have.
You people make me want to throw up. Your the first person to reach for a free handout. The one that stands by and looks on while an innocent person is mugged, or won't identify a gang member that killed an innocent person. Your the first person that calls the police when your house is invaded, or calls the military if America gets invaded but you won't stand up to defend it yourself. Your the person that hides in the closet when threatened or waves the white flag of surrender. If left up to you we would have a King / Queen and be speaking English, or a Dictator and be speaking German, or a Prince and be speaking Japanese. You are the one that gives our freedoms away every day to the Govenment because you won't stand up for yourself. Yes, I thank the Lord every day I don't have to depend on people like you to defend us and our freedom.
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