Topic: Election 2008
An Obama Win Is A Victory For Conservatism Many of the conservatives I know would find this appalling, but it's true.by DustoneGT
(libertarian)
Monday, November 3, 2008
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." -Ronald Reagan
Many of the conservatives I know have been trying to convince me to vote for McCain. "A vote for a third party is a vote for Obama." some of them would say. "Baldwin or Barr will not win, don't waste your vote." others say.
Fear of an Obama presidency strikes fear in the hearts of conservatives, and rightly so. He wants to raise taxes, socialize everything from milkshakes to medicine, and do a host of other unwise things. I get that. Obama Bad.
When I bring up McCain-Feingold (restricted free speech in the name of 'campaign finance reform'), McCain-Lieberman (the carbon tax), the bailout bill, or compulsory national service, conservatives tell me to quit living in a dream world. Third parties will never win and I will never find an ideal candidate, they say.
I voted for Chuck Baldwin, the Constitution Party candidate, in early voting. I was initially a Bob Barr supporter (Libertarian Party), but he did some things during the campaign that made me question his judgement and integrity. As far as McCain and Obama go, I wasn't satisfied with my choice of National Socialist or International Socialist. Baldwin was the lesser of six evils.
Why did I do this?
Nazi is short for National Socialist. The warmongering big-government interventionist neoconservatives currently running the Republican Party are the radical nationalists. The universal healthcare carbon taxing wealth redistributing neoliberals currently in charge of the Democratic Party are the socialists.
To get their way, the two major parties have to compromise. To get Democrats to pay for the wars, Republicans have to vote for socialist programs. To get their socialist programs, Democrats have to vote for the wars.
In today's environment, bipartisanship is nothing less than Nazi. A 'moderate' Republican or a Democrat that supports war like Joe Lieberman are too similar to Hitler to earn my vote. They can burn reichstags all day long and it's not going to change my mind.
If McCain wins, the Republican party will continue its drive down the highway to hell. It will drive across every shade of gray until it parks in the deepest black. Republican primary voters will assume next time it took a McCain to beat an Obama. Don't count on Sarah Palin becoming the next nominee. Count on someone like Joe Lieberman or Rudy Giuliani.
The Republican party will complete it's transformation into the single-issue party it was this election season. Do you support the war? Yes? Welcome Comrade! We don't care if you support gun control, partial-birth abortion or Marxism. Little things like a free market, free speech or free-anything don't matter anymore. We'll take anybody if they support expansionist imperialism.
If McCain loses, the Republican party has to go back to the drawing board. One of two things will happen.
The party will come to it's senses and do what it takes to get back with the conservative and libertarian voters. Another McCain will not be chosen for the sake of beating Hillary.
OR
The conservative and libertarian Republicans will make like battered wives who have finally had it and move out. The Republican party will fracture and two or three parties will take it's place. A new pan-conservative coalition will develop to oppose the Democrats, who will soon fracture themselves if they don't do what it takes to make civil libertarians happy.
Either way, conservatism, libertarianism and freedom in general wins. None of this can happen if McCain is our next president.
That's why I didn't vote for him.
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Unfortunately the differences between McCain and Obama are really very little. McCain is just a little slower road to socialism than Obama.There needs to be a strong statement sent to the Republican party; put a real conservative on the ticket, one who will work to “limit” government and maximize individual liberty.Since the differences are so little, I’m not buying into this “lesser of two evils” box I’ve been put into my entire voting life. It would be funny if all true conservatives voted for Ronal Reagan (who obviously can’t win) so there would be no mistaking the disappointment of the rank-and-file. Sadly many Republicans I know voted (mail in) for Nader as a protest, but I doubt that the Republicans elite will get the message so we’re likely to see a Giuliani next time.Who knows maybe Obama will get us out of Iraq and repeal the Patriot Act.
Although it is reported that Mr. Obama is a liberal, he has run as a conservative. Does that make him a neo-con? And if so, how do we then get back to a society where individual liberties are valued, and a government that works for the people? It seems to me that even though "neo-con" is a dirty word now, as "liberal" has been for the last couple of decades or so, the neo-con philosophy is still alive and well--the meaning is still there, we just don't say that word anymore, and eventually, someone will think of a new catchy word to call it. And it also seems that neo-con is the worst of both worlds, and it is breaking this country, and there is no way back, dismal.
I commend you for throwing your vote away. No one wants YOU contributing to our national Presidential decision.
But, your reasoning is egregiously WRONG (as usual). Conservatives are the FASCISTS of modern America. As one author explained it, Fascism is:
"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]
THAT'S the direction of the RABID REPUBLICAN RIGHT. Most people CONDEMN it, they don't want to ENCOURAGE it.
Thank you Master C for giving a perfect example of how we got into this mess in the first place. Our elections now days tend to miss guide the public with scare tactics with both sides dropping hints at the other being too left or too right and now even John McCain started outright calling Obama a socialist. With McCains support of the bailout bill and his wonderful Health care plans which will give money to people who dont have insurance I would like to ask Mr. McCain if he could provide a definition for socialism and how he considers himself not one.
But of course the dirty republicans got us into this mess in the first place with their crazy war in Iraq but luckily the democrats took control of the House and ended that expensive and illegal war as promised... psych!
And of course Obama plans to end the war as well... According to him we shouldnt be over there... but in Pakistan... thats where the baddest of the badies are!
Our system is failing people... the views of the major party candidates are far from the views of the majority of the people. They scare you into believing they are the lesser of two evils and draw a line in the sand of the american people as their own views grow closer and closer and they begin to work together for their own personal goals such as the bailout. The house shot down the bill the first time because they would lose their positions but once they worked together they got that bill passed despite public disgust. Neither side even attempted to propose a plan that would not include handing out billions of our money to these companies.
Bush brought on this bill... Obama and McCain supported it... No taxation without representation is what we fought for... and we just lost it.
That's exactly what I meant, actually. I called McCain a National Socialist....Nazi....or fascist.
True conservatives (not the neoconservatives you refer to) are very libertarian in most ways. They oppose government spending. They oppose the government's expansion into our house. They don't just want the government out of our bedrooms, they want them out of our gun safes, our closets, our computers and file cabinets.
Many conservatives have been duped into supporting the empire, that's true. I criticized that in my article, too. The Republican party is the party of war above all else these days.
I agree with you 100% that the "conservatives" with fascist tendencies are bad. Very bad. Toss 'em out.
Libertarians, civil libertarians, true liberals and conservatives are all coming together to oppose the rapid loss of personal liberty.
How about this C-man....we help protect 'your' rights if you help us protect 'ours'. We keep our guns and our money and you get all the marijuana and gay marriage you want. It's a pretty sweet deal for all involved. Go to LP.org to learn more...
Conservatives don't want to allow marijuana or recreational/medical drug usage, they don't want to allow abortions or stem cell research, they want a constitutional amendment to prevent Gay marriage, they want (Christian) God in our public buildings and on our money, they want no restrictions on gun ownership, they want unions abolished or more restricted, they want to police the world with our soldiers, wiretap and investigate our private conversations ~ and you say they don't want to restrict our freedoms.
Master C,
Man, you should watch your tone. You sound as if you are attacking Dustone. I felt that the point of the article was right on. These things that you are bringing up are true; however, they are not the point of this article.
Secondly, the Democratic Party is not going to do these things that you are mentioning either; thus proving Dustone's point again.
The scope of the article is fine and it is well written. If you want to discuss, please do so in a polite manner.
Dude
Lucky you. I'm going to have to pack a lunch and get in line at 5 a.m. if I want vote and get to work on time -- 10 a.m.
It'll be interesting to see if Baldwin gets 1% in the states he's in. The US Taxpayers (Constitution) Party here in Michigan has Congressional candidates in half the districts. Considering they needed 3,000 signatures per district, that's somewhat impressive.
Maybe the Constitution party will attact some more disgruntled Republicans? We'll see how badly the GOP eats its own after this election. Start looking to 2010!
Not only did you throw away your vote, but if Obama wins, you have also thrown away the freedoms that most Americans take for granted. Obama does not have any good feelings for America and I believe his intent is to weaken our country to the point that we will be an easy takeover for his Middle Eastern friends. It won't take much - just a promise of a hand-out and 50% of our population is on Obama's side. So much for slavery, they will sell themselves for a little extra welfare. So be self-righteous and think about this email when our country no longer allows you the freedom to express yourself on the internet and there is no hope of pulling yourself out of your degraded position. Obama is going to take care of the middle class alright - they will be dropped to the same level as the low income group, so everyone is equal. Of course, there will be another class of people, remember the leaders of all of the Communist countries - they want for nothing in their mansions with every extravagance imaginable. But, this is fair for the Messiah - right?
I too initially wanted to vote for Bob Barr, but voted for Chuck Baldwin instead. I voted for him yesterday as a write-in candidate. Chuck seemed more of a human being than Bob, and I also liked his position more often than I liked Bob's. No candidate seems perfect, but Chuck seems closer to perfection than anyone else.
I don't regret my vote to Chuck, or even my small economic contribution to him (and to Bob's campaign initially), but I'm beginning to question the whole thing.
The issue is not that I've wasted a vote. A truly wasted vote would have been one for "McBama". The issue is this: not only I didn't get Chuck Baldwin into the White House, and this is certainly no surprise, but he'll probably not get 1 percent of all the votes, and in fact, minority party candidates will probably not get 3 percent of the vote collectively (they would need at least 15 percent just to be able to participate in the nationally-syndicated debates).
So now I'm asking myself why even bother and vote? These candidates have no better a chance at winning an election, or even at winning influence from the major parties than I do. The electoral process has nothing legitimately democratic about it, and the media participate in the perpetuation of its llegimacy, so why bother voting? Why bother giving legitimacy to something that has none to begin with, and that will never conform to your ideals or expectations anyway?
I, being unable to vote for McCain with a clear conscience, also voted for Baldwin. At work this morning, everyone's tone was one of disgust, even those who had voted for Obama. Noone was thrilled with the candidate for whom they voted. One person started to question why anyone would vote for any of the third parties on the ballot, or why they should even have been on the ballot in the first place, being that they could never win. I replied to her that some people vote based on conscience and conviction rather than on numbers. I knew that Baldwin could not win; however, I also knew that McCain could not win. Even if all of the conservative independents had voted for McCain, Obama would still be President elect.
My co-workers were disgusted even though Obama won. I, however, was very happy with the candidate for whom I voted even though he did not win. I am a happy loser.
I also voted for Baldwin because I'm tired of always having to vote for the lesser of 2 evils. I decided to vote for a candidate that was closer to my beliefs 's on the issues this time, and will continue to vote for what I believe is in the best interest of this country. We as citizens should not be reduced to having to always chose between tweedle dee and tweedle dumb. We have a right to cast our votes for whomever we think is best for this great nation.
Posted By: Steven Loomis
Date: 2008-11-06 20:29:08
I initially wanted Ron Paul for president. I even got friends of mine to vote in the primaries, but when he lost to John McCain I was disgusted and lost interest. Then I heard about Bob Barr decided to vote for himI even talked some of my friends into doing so, but is still wasn't really happy with my choice. Election day eve I was still on the fence for McCain who I did not want of Bob Barr who could not win. So I went online and found the City Club third party debate and watched it. I decided then to vote for Chuck Baldwin because he was who I wanted for president. I tried to get ahold of my friends and tell them to vote for Chuck Baldwin but in the end only was able to convince my sister who was planning to vote for Ron Paul. I wanted McCain about %5 more than Obama but I cant make sence of voting for somone because you think they might win. I have decided that I will vote for who I want and not who I think might be able to pull it off. Also I plan to get more involved so I can try to give these 3rd parties more of a voice since thats what I think we need. I do not feel that I threw my vote away I wish I could have gotten more people to join me. Steven Loomis
You are again confusing neo-cons with true conservatives. The problem is that the Republican Party no longer represents what it initially stood for, and no longer is the party for real conservatives. If you had gone to the website that Dustone left in his comment for you, that would have been obvious. Libertarians support all of these freedoms; essentially they want as little government involvement in our lives as possible.
Before you leave your next comment I suggest you do a little bit of homework first.
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