Topic: About the Chart
Dissecting the Nolan Chart litmus test Litmus tests, rigged polls and framed debates make a search for real solutions unrealistic.by Phaedrus
(Libertarian)
Thursday, December 13, 2007
I was glad to see a site based on the Nolan Chart, but perturbed to see so little representation from other points of view, be they centrist or statist, liberal, or conservative.
So I decided to dig into the matter. First the good:
I've been enjoying the articles on nolanchart.com for months. At last, a political site, experiencing rapid growth, that gathered together lots of good writing on topics I cared about, with a web 2.0 business model that potentially rewarded authors for their words with a dirt simple, published contract! Applause!
I love the ground rules. No ad hominem or personal attacks, and cite (preferably link to) your sources. These are the two most important rules that I wish the mainstream media would apply to itself.
Those two rules are an absolute requirement for civilized and productive discourse.
Now the bad:
After spending all this time here, I started aching for dissent.
I couldn't help but notice that there was almost no-one linked to off of the Nolan Chart graphic that wasn't a libertarian. I wanted to find out why, and I also wanted to post articles on interesting problems that posed challenges to the libertarian viewpoint, in a forum where they could be discussed.
So I applied to be an author today, only to find that the questions asked of new authors are all framed to toss nearly every sane person into the libertarian bucket. This sort of framing is no better than what the MSM does to people when they force people into their frame of reference, and no more useful.
I actually had a very different first piece in mind when I first thought about writing here, but I'll get to that if y'all let me stay around after showing up in your home and criticising the furnishings....
I think that the Nolan Chart is a far more useful means of describing political discourse than the ancient left/right dichotomy, but it can only be useful if former members of the left/right ideological framework agree to use it.
I would like it if the site's questionaire was vetted by members of each ideological group to place their viewpoint in the best possible light.
Take question 8, for example:
8. Social Security
Typical Libertarian View: Let people control their own retirement and they'll retire richer and better off. The Social Security system is already bankrupt, despite what the politicians and bureaucrats keep telling us. Allow individuals to choose for themselves whether to opt out of the Social Security system. If we force everyone to remain in its pyramid scheme, the end result will be disastrous. We must act now before Social Security becomes completely insolvent.
Typical Conservative View: Social Security should be maintained and protected by the government, although we do need to offer individuals an alternative government-managed solution if they so choose.
Typical Liberal View: Social Security is a vital part of the social safety net and should be properly funded and protected at all times. If necessary, make big business and the rich pay for any shortfalls.
Typical Statist View: Government has an obligation to provide for people in their twilight years, and Social security is a proper expression of governmental control. The system is sound and does not need anything more than minor adjustments from time to time.
It is perfectly reasonable for a statist or liberal to believe that Social Security is a desirable social program, and also believe that that it is bankrupt and needs to be fixed.
In almost every case in the questionaire, every sentence describing the non-libertarian options available frames the options negatively.
Secondly, there should be more questions, total, on more issues than the top 10 questions here, and every question should have a fifth potential answer by default: Don't give a hoot. (DGAH)
Without actually having authors that represent the political spectrum, you end up with a site that is talking only to itself, and whining because nobody important is paying attention.
- Phaedrus
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2007 Phaedrus, all rights reserved.
Published: Thursday, December 13, 2007
Last modified: Thursday, December 13, 2007
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Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2007-12-13 12:59:20
First of all, welcome to the Nolan Chart, Phaedrus!
Second, I'm more than willing to consider alternative answers for the survey. However, I can't consider them if you don't come up with alternative wordings.
You and I have already privately exchanged one email each about this issue, so I won't go into detail here about everything we have already covered in that exchange. However, I will say here that the particular answer you mentioned in your article is actually one I got from the Social Security Administration themselves. Additionally, I have a former employer who once scored as a perfect Statist, bottom corner of the chart, using the World's Smallest Political Quiz which the Advocates for Self Government offer. His view of Social Security is virtually the same as what I wrote as the typical Statist answer.
Interesting point Phaedrus. I have had my reservations about the questionaire myself, which I have discussed with Walt, so I won't go into detail on it. I do have an idea for the possible rewording of the questions. I'm pretty sure that I have seen a liberal, conservative, and centrist on here. So... it would be possible for them to write their own responses to the questions. they could be gathered up and therefore the questionaire would be more 'fair' as it were. However, the problem with that is that there are so few of each, so you don't really get the results you're looking for.
I considered myself conservative until I took the Nolan Chart test here. I didn't think of politics in two dimensions. I want less government where possible. I don't get bent out of shape if someone wants to roll a dube in the privacy of their own home after working hard all week.
My wife took it too and pinged the far left side. She feels that those conservatives are heartless bastards. Not so. They just want to spend your money on different things.
I tend to be a closer to the libertarian side, but I do think we have a responsibility to take care of those who are incapable of taking care of themselves. In a vacuum of chartible organizations, that burden gets picked up by government.
I will disagree with your premise that the our differences make the search for solutions unrealistic. I try to search for solutions every day, however I can. I'll cede on some issues so that I can get an overall agenda approved. The way you steer an iceberg is to nudge it a little bit at a time. Hopefully, adherence to the Constitution will keep us from each other's throats, until we can find a solution that everyone can live with.
I'll have to take it again sometime. There were a couple questions that I could have answered slightly differently. After looking at what I've written in the past month, that star seems comfortable in the upper plate.
By the way, this week I rolled an old 401(k) to my better performing IRA. Let's see social security beat 14% when it's funded by dollars and government bonds. I don't think so.
Apologies for not doing a followup yet, I've been traveling heavily.
I have two easy thoughts on your questions, and the harder one will have to wait.
You could kill the questionaire entirely, and merely ask if the writer viewed himself as "liberal,conservative,centrist
,statist,or libertarian or none of the above. THEN, use the chart to have *readers* vote on a given article as to what category it fits on.
One of my goals in life has been to develop an anti-google - where you don't find what you are looking for, but views contrary to your own....
As to keeping the questionaire, revising the questions, that turned out to be something of a big task, and I'll post on that as soon as I get to a place where I can type for a while.
I agree with Phaedrus; the questionaire does appear strongly biased to the Libertarian view.
I also was very pleased to learn of the Nolan Chart. At last I found a way to "label" my political views. There was no room for me on the so-called liberal/conservative spectrum. And like Phaedrus, I also look for opposing view points because they can challenge and help me grow... and often help strengthen my own views.
Another suggestion on the questionaire: Remove the heading of each answer option (e.g. "Typical Libertarian Response"), and mix the order of the options. I don't have any suggestions at the moment on rewording some of the options, but I think it could help. Also, allowing readers to vote on which category an article belongs in is a great idea. There would be 2 stars on the chart.
I agree with you on this fully. It does make the nolan chart less useful and less valid, and including more opinions on this site makes it healthier and more interesting.
Whoever controls the questionaire should seriously consider this advice.
Phaedrus, I disagree that the questionnaire is biased to the Libertarian point of view. The Libertarian point of view is a strong opinion reflecting the Libertarian distaste for social programs.
I have a question about the 'vetting' [I really hate that word] of questions, how do you propose to represent the centrist point of view?
Being centrist is not ambivalence, apathy, a need to compromise, or a need to make everyone happy; it is an opinion that there are strengths and weaknesses in every solution and that an optimum is not likely to found in any extreme.
First off as in any 2 dimensonal measuring device one needs 2 of them to get anywhere near a true picture of the universe. So where is the 90 degree polar pole of Nolans?
Second as with any "truth" the extreme NEVER can exist in Nature.
Therefor the corners of all of these options should be painted out or labled as "totalitarianism".
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Thus Left and Right - Up and Down have more in common with one another and with fantasy and greed as do any of the more Centrist positions. For isn,t Communism the total ownership of everyehthing by the State the nearest kin of Capitalism - the total ownership of everything by private enterprise? And in fact dont we see Corporations supporting their representatives into Goverenment to do just that? And liberalist - even on this website demanding IDs and passcodes and filters on free speach even though they profess to be "totally" against it?
 Centrisim is always the more stable in Nature thus more Politically viable also.
One should devise the perfect sphere Nolan chart not argue over which totalitarian view is correct.
By filtering out the extemes, even on this chart in 2D by coloring out the corners, one approaches that perspective. True representatation of political options. Freedom, Human decision making - not totalitarianism, not corporations - WITHIN limits of social behaviour. Cultural determination by thinking responsible individuals, not kings and imperialists, not of any ilk. Socailism. We the People make decisions. perhaps through our representatives who have Social Welfare at the center of their decision making.
Just to make an aditional point. One smart person once told me this: definitions of this categories depend on the current system. Progressives of today will change the system in near future and as they get older they will want it to remain like that, and will become statists, and eventually as things change even more, they will become conservative, and want to go back in time.
Speeking of framing poll questions, here is nice video on the topic: http://best-google-videos.com/video.php?csid=123
Posted By: Christian Prophet
Date: 2008-02-21 23:19:52
I guess I'm prejudiced. I've never liked the Nolan Chart. When it was first circulated it tried to differientiate between "personal" freedom and "economic" freedom. How silly! There is no difference. Economic freedom is intensely personal, and personal freedom has it's economic component. At least the chart on this site does not attempt to separate the two.
But I still don't know how it serves to divide us into camps. We are all in this together and we all have the same deepest desires beneath all the surface nonsense. There are times and places and subjects ... contexts ... in which I'm going to be intensely liberal. In other atmospheres I'm going to be thoroughly conservative. A lot of times I'm going to be a middle-of-the-roader. I might temporarily be a statist, as James Madison was when he recognized certain needs and worked to create the U.S. Constitution. Other times, I'm going to be none of the above ... but very libertarian. I am everything. Why would I want to separate myself out from others? So I can feel self-righteous and better than others?
I don't like any of those words: liberal, conservative, statist, libertarian. I only have one question: "Do you wish to enslave me? Or are you willing to let me be in freedom to make my own mistakes and learn from my own mistakes?"
So my chart has two perpendicular planes: slavery and freedom. Every question on every political subject, for me, comes down to: "Would I be free to choose? Or am I being forced to submit?"
I've been accused of moral relativism because I want freedom to choose. That's baloney. My freedom to choose is the freedom to look deep inside myself to find out what is really right. My deep spirit, my heart and soul, is not going to guide me to murder someone out of lust or lunacy. That would be ego guidance. I NEED freedom to practice the morality that my spirit makes me aware of.
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2007 Phaedrus, all rights reserved.