Topic: Scientology
The Story of Xenu: The Secret Top Scientologists Don't Want You To See An overview of the story of Xenu as described in Scientology's "Operating Thetan" level three and popularized in an episode of South Park.by Gregg
(centrist)
Thursday, September 11, 2008
One of the most closely guarded secrets within the church of Scientology is the story of Xenu. It was at one point such a well kept secret that the majority of Scientologists hadn't even heard of it! When Scientology documents became available to the public, however, this story of alien hijacking and murder became an instant phenomenon among Scientology's critics. Despite the fact that much of the public has already been exposed to the Xenu story, the Church of Scientology continues to attempt to stifle any discussion of their materials online.
Background
Scientology is a controversial religion founded by L Ron Hubbard in the 1950s. Scientologists are organized based on what "level" they have attained within the Church, starting with "pre-clears" (those who have not yet finished the first level within Scientology) and moving up to the Operating Thetan levels I-VIII. The Xenu story is explained to the Scientologist during their Operating Thetan level III course. To attain this level within Scientology, the average pricetag is $162,500.00. [3]
The Xenu story and OT III materials were written in 1967 at a very difficult point in Hubbard's life. He had been traveling and suffered injuries which he refused to have treated. He also appeared to be in emotional distress. Virginia Downsborough, a Scientologist who was with Hubbard while OT III was being written summed up her experience: "When I went in to his room there were drugs of all kinds everywhere. He seemed to be taking about sixty thousand different pills. I was appalled, particularly after listening to all his tirades against drugs and the medical profession. There was something very wrong with him, but I didn't know what it was except that he was in a state of deep depression; he told me he didn't have any more gains and he wanted to die. That's what he said: 'I want to die'." [4]
The Text
The head of the Galactic Federation (76 planets around larger stars visible from here) (founded 95,000,000 years ago, very space opera) solved overpopulation (250 billion or so per planet, 178 billion on average) by mass implanting. He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack (Earth) and put an H-Bomb on the principal volcanos (Incident II) and then the Pacific area ones were taken in boxes to Hawaii and the Atlantic area ones to Las Palmas and there "packaged".
His name was Xenu. He used renegades. Various misleading data by means of circuits etc. was placed in the implants.
When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people) captured him after six years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. "They" are gone. The place (Confederation) has since been a desert. The length and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc) anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been dispensed with by my tech development. [1]
The material is, like much of Hubbard's work, difficult to understand without expert translation. Fortunately, many ex-Scientologists have come forward to tell the story of Xenu in terms familiar to the general public.
Xenu, they say, was the head of a huge galactic empire with a very serious overpopulation problem. To solve this problem, he captured millions of his subjects and froze them in a mixture of glycol and alcohol, and then transported them to Earth (known as Teegeeack at this time). The frozen aliens were placed at the bases of volcanoes, and hydrogen bombs were used to cause the volcanoes to erupt. The souls of the aliens (and natives to Teegeeack) were then captured with electric ribbon and brainwashed for 36 days. [2]
These brainwashed Thetans still wander the earth today, latching themselves onto humans and causing all kinds of problems for the host. Hubbard claimed that he was the first to work through this brainwashing, and that anyone who attemted to do so without the use of his technique would die.
Xenu in the practice of Scientology
Scientologists believe in a very specific form of reincarnation. The Thetan is believed to predate the creation of this Universe, and time itself. Thetans were at one point infinitely powerful, but over the billions of years they have existed in this Universe, they have become "implanted" (brainwashed or traumatized) with suggestions that cause them to forget these powers. Every person has a Thetan within them that needs to be "cleared" of these "implants."
The first stages of Scientology focus on helping the (pre-clear) rid themselves of what is called the "reactive mind." In Scientology, it is believed that here are two kinds of minds, the reactive, which stores trauma and other negative or limiting thoughts and the analytical which behaves rationally. Once the (pre-clear) has completely eliminated the reactive mind, they have acchieved a state called "clear." This is achieved through auditing, a Scientology practice that has been compared to confession, hypnotic suggestion, and therapy.
After a Scientologist achieves the state of "clear," they are informed that there are more courses needed for them to attain their true potential. These higher levels of Scientology are called the Operating Thetan levels, because at this stage the Scientologist is believed to be a Thetan in control of the mind and body, rather than one who is trapped by their reactive mind. After OT levels I and II, OT III introduces a new dynamic to the auditing work that he Scientologist must undertake. Before OT III, the Scientologist is merely removing implants from their own Thetan. At OT III it is revealed that their body is covered in other Thetans (Body Thetans), and sometimes clusters of Thetans. These individual Thetans have some level of congnizence and must be audited the same way that the Scientologist was before they became clear. When the Body Thetans are sucessfully "deprogrammed," they leave the host body and stop causing problems for the Scientologist [2].
sources:
[1] Margery Wakefield, The Road to Xenu, p. 76-77.
The views expressed in this
article are those of Gregg only and do not represent
the views of Nolan Chart, LLC or its affiliates. Gregg is
solely responsible for the contents of this article and is not an
employee or otherwise affiliated with Nolan Chart, LLC in his/her role as a columnist.
I saw the South Park Episode years ago when they had to flash "This is what scientologist REALLY believe" across the screen because the story was so far fetched.
Although I hear it is true that Scnlogy doesn't reveal this story for YEARS and only then to a few sellect people who have dished out 1000's of dollars. Most people I understand become to pre-occupied by the hoops that scientology high pressure sales people (they don't call them sales people) make them jump thru.
I saw an interview that one lady was so exausted that she did not have the energy to stop one of these sales people from calling the bank and getting a loan in her name saying that the loan was for business equipment when actully it went to scientology classes. (her sales person actually called the bank and said it was HER)
I would imagine if I was that worn down I would believe in Xenu just to get out of there for the day.
PS I heard one scientologist call into a radio program and claim the Xenu Story was a screen play written by sci/fi fiction writer L Ron Hubbard (the founder of scientology) But I did some research and in their own materials(The dessemination course available on Wiki leaks) in the glossary under the entry "Space Opera" it is clear that the story "IS NOT FICTION". it went on to say that people need a certain degree of understanding before they should be told about this story. (I bet they would)
It's possible that this hubbard story, written in 1975 (http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_cult_%22Revolt_in_the_stars%22_(circa_1975)) was inspired by his true beleifs (or what he claimed where his true beliefs), but so was battlefield earth! (horrible movie, by the way!)
But years before, Hubbard wrote several guidelines and stories (http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Scientology) showing that the xenu story was taught as true, and only after passing through the "wall of fire". As you can read in Hubbard's own words, he said that he was the first to learn this truth and survive.http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_Rons_Journal_Wall_of_Fire_transcript
Be careful reading it! According to hubbard, your alien ghost that lives inside you is programmed to kill you if you learn it too soon!
Scientologists will argue that Xenu was from a screen play written by L. Ron Hubbard. This is false, as Xenu is part of their core beliefs. Unfortunately, this is only after you've paid enough money to gain access to the upper level teachings. What's worse is, they are not allowed to divulge this information to lower level Scientologists, so those Scientologists will naturally deny the doctrine of Xenu.
What kind of religion works like this? Scientology is not a religion and does not deserve tax exempt status.
You're right, Terryeo. The only people that claim that it's a screenplay are the Scientologists themselves. The countless people that escaped the cult will tell about being locked in a room and watched carefully as they read these "secret" materials. In fact, the cult itself has acknowledged the material as copywritten religious material in several lawsuits. So, in essence, the systems set up so that they have to lie.
Makes you wonder... Tom Cruise is, what, an OT7? Something like that. But his wife is only an OT2. That means that she can not yet know about the "Xenu" story, but he does, and he can't talk to her about it. Is that what the cult does to families?
Ohhh, looky! Anonymous has used the "Terryeo" editing identity here, too. Ohhh, Looky, Looky!
Scientology helps people at first and if people wish to, they can continue to study. What it actually does, it helps you understand what you already know.
"Core" means central, built upon, foundational, necessarily known of by everyone. Whereas Mr. anon misunderstands and misuses the word to mean, "hidden, secret, unrevealed". I've found you can argue knowledge with an anny, but you can't argue understanding. I know you misunderstand. You know you don't want to understand.
Terryeo[tm] cleverly tried to slip something in to change the meaning of the word. That's why we have to watch!
I see no definition of "core" that indicates that it is "known by everyone". In fact, princeton university defines the word as
a small group of indispensable persons or things; "five periodicals make up the core of their publishing program"
kernel: the choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience; "the gist of the prosecutor's argument"; "the heart and soul of the Republican Party"; "the nub of the story"
effect: the central meaning or theme of a speech or literary work
"effect: the central meaning or theme of a literary work" -- the Scientology phlosophy consists of, perhaps, 35 million published words. But those address Xenu. A small handful of stolen papers profess some ill-defined Xenu. Compare 35,000,000 words to a thin handful of pages and conclude (as you did) the pages are central while the 35 million words are not. Is that good thinking?
"kernel: the choicest or most essential part of some idea"; "the gist" -- Those are stated widely at Scientology websites.
"a small group of indispensable things"; Neither the philosophy nor the Church responsible for disseminating it (to my knowledge) say that a single idea of it is "indispensable". By your own direction of look, Xenu is presented somewhere in the OT levels which are, by definition far from the "core". Good luck with your understanding.
So I know where you're coming from, could you please tell me what OT level you've obtained? Believe it or not, I do care about and respect your beliefs, and I don't want to interfere with your belief system.
I respectfully ask so that I may speak to you on equal and mutually understanding terms.
The ideas Scientology proposes are disseminated by the Church. Its core idear are about understanding what you know. This seems trivial, perhaps, but surprisingly, it makes a difference. Myself, I would say that understanding what you know is the core, the foundation, of scientology.
Hubbard used space opera examples here and there, he scattered a little of it through his Church writings. For most parishioners, his examples seem to bring understanding. Critics suggest this Xenu myth is one of those data you chant until you believe, or something. And the chant isn't presented to you until you've leared a series of previous chants. But that isn't' the situation, Scientology is not memorized knowledge, it is understood knowledge.
A child might memorize the multiplication table. Could the child then use his memorized knowledge to tell you the square footage of a wall? Could he multiply length times height, and subtract the square footage of the wall's windows or doors and give you the square footage the paint would have to cover? That is a use of the multiplication table, an example of understood knowledge. Scientology's philosophy leads you into understanding what you know, so you can use what you know.
One of its areas of knowledge is human emotion. It is very helpful to be able to understand how a person you are talking to feels, right away. Another area is study technology. It is real helpful to understand (for immediate application) what you study.
I'm not going to tell you my height, weight, or processing level, Marc. However, at allexperts.com, Laurie Hamilton responds to these sorts of xenu questions (which she says she is experienced with) in a manner that I've found helpful.
This article is just a badly executed attempt to ridicule scientologists and is nowhere near in describing real life. Gregg, you know better than that.
LOL, keep posting your whiny replies Louanne and Terry. It just helps float this article back to the top and more people learn the truth about how crazy OT III is every time they see it.
How are are those special powers working out for you by the way? We are still here.
Rule 34 E-Meter - Lately I have seen the argument you pose, stated something like this. If OTs really had special powers, since OTs obviously want critics to simply shut up, then OTs would simply eradicate all critics from the face of the Earth. Therefore, there are no OT powers, even the simple-minded can see that!
Oh yes, that's easy to understand Rule 34, indeed, very easy to understand. We haven't been eradicated -- yet, therefore they can not do it. Excuse me, will you? I'm going to eat some pie and ice cream.
First, theoretically, could they if they wanted to?
second, I think he might be (with tounge in cheek) referring to the ability to "confront and shatter supression". Does that mean that I will soon be confronted and shattered (referring to my "supressive" actions, I mean).
Hubbard used space opera examples here and there, he scattered a little of it through his Church writings. For most parishioners, his examples seem to bring understanding.
1. Then why does the Church of Scientology make such a big deal out of it? (They have in the past sued anyone who would make the OT3 materials public and raided their homes to confiscate their computers). 2. The "Xenu story" provides the basis for OT4-OT8 , which deal with getting rid of "body thetans". Xenu is the explanation for the 4th dynamic engram aka incident 2. Just an example you say?
See, if your church wouldn't keep the OT levels secret but instead make them public and allow anyone the religious freedom to openly talk about their meaning, there wouldn't be any more ridicule in the long run. Just as no one laughs anymore about the virgin born man who could make water into wine, today.
Recently some OT7 documents leaked by the way: OTVII-docs
Well, that's the thing, hax0r. I know that some believe that if you find out about the xenu story before you're ready, the thetans will kill you. (Ref Hubbard's writings)
They claim that this is the reason for keeping it private. However , if this were true, we would have seen millions of deaths after the South Park episode finally aired. This did not happen. Clearly, there is no harm to finding this out early.
I'm not mocking the belief in xenu. Clearly, I don't believe in it myself, but it's no more wacky than some other beliefs. I really can't understand why the public scientologists didn't cry out once they realized that the secret was out, and for free at that.
Maybe saying it this way would make sense to some commenters. It is my opinion that the Church does not disseminate knowledge, nor disseminate beliefs, but disseminates understanding. And by that I mean personal understanding. Some 35 millions words are sold to all public, anytime. But a few are confidential and not sold to anyone at all. Such understanding comes about best by an established sequence of understandings, and that idea is illustrated by a Bridge to Total Freedom.
In days of yore a man would serve an apprenticeship to eventually understand blacksmithing. Published words alone can not create a blacksmith, the skill requires knowledge be combined with experience, to be understood. And that's what (my opinion) the Church disseminates; not knowledge, not belief, but understanding. There is no magic pill, the path is defined ,but like any education, it requires effort and persistance to walk.
Looking at a calculus book can be of little use to a student who hasn't understood algebra.
It makes sense, Terryeo; we can understand what you're saying. We just don't agree.
Laurie on allexperts.com tacitly acknowledges the xenu story, and the wikileaks re-release of the documents agree to it. To put it in context, it's like the blacksmith telling his apprentice that if he learns about the existance of a sword before he learns how to make a dagger, he will die. Why would that apprentice still trust the master when he learns of a sword, and does not die? He will feel lied to and find another master.
Regarding the blacksmith analogy, the apprentice is trained because he needs to learn the foundation before he learns the advanced concepts. Same thing with learning to play an instrument or to sing. However, the difference is that the masters don't hide information from them, and certainly don't tell them that they'll die if they learn it too quickly.
No need to debate the existance of Xenu- that's a matter of personal belief. However, I feel that it should not be hidden from earnest students of the faith.
Slightly off topic, but you mentioned that "some 35 million words are sold to the public"... Why? Why are they sold rather than given? Bibles, Korans, Torahs, etc are all free. Why does someone have to buy a book in order to start on the path of Scientology? I mean, I'm all for the beliefs that one might choose to have, but that policy cuts off the small very poor percentage that cannot afford such things, especially if they're near one of the many libraries that don't carry the books. What does the CoS offer them?
(To compare, when I was travelling recently I stopped into a FZ center, and walked out with several free books. I think that's a great policy that should be emulated)
You can still read about Blacksmithing and all it entails. No one will come sue you for it. Unlike with Scientology who will come after anyone who talks about or gains access to these secret teachings. Why would Scientology care if these were known to the public? What does Scientology have to hide?
Why are 35 million words sold to the public instead of being freely available? It probably has to do with publication costs. At the same time, the 18 books comprising what the Church calls "the Basics". have been widely donated to public libraries. You'll probably find a set in the major cities in the USA, England, Ireland and most of the western world. According to what I read, it is an ongoing effort and intended to include all countries, all languages.
And there is a fair amount of information online, actual useful information, that you can read and apply without enrolling in a course or spending money. Studytechnology.org is such a site. http://www.studytechnology.org/special/ntrpg.htm spells out in the simplest possible way (my opinion) the idea of barriers arising during study. You recognize a barrier has been encountered by how you are progessing and by how you feel. With only three barriers, the action of recognizing which barrier you have encountered is not impossible. And that means taking an action to overcome the barrier you've encountered. Also, I have seen an extensive step by step online, about how to clear up a misunderstood word. These kinds of information can be directly helpful and are some of the Church's published words, they are some of Hubbard's 35 million words.
NomNomNom the Church may attack those who attack them. Were your property stolen, wouldn't you do something? Let's separate -having an opionion- from criminal activity, ok? Let's separate -writing an opinion- from attacking, okay? If you go out of your way to attack someone, or even any animal, you place yourself at risk, that is just how things work, isn't it?
Ah, Terryeo! I see a glimpse of hope for a good conversation. Please define an "attack", as you reference to in regards to the CoS and worthy of retribution.
I would strongly disagree that publication costs are the issue here. This is for many reasons. ebooks are free, and could be distributed at no cost. There are many single-run publishers that will publish a book for free, and they can be sold at low cost if profit's not a concern. Also, that internet's pretty large, and could easily host every book at no cost.
Terryeo said, "NomNomNom the Church may attack those who attack them."
Uh oh. That sounds like vigilantism to me. In Scientology the ends justifies the means as long as it is for the benefit of the "church". This is why the US needs anti cult regulations, to prevent this kind of power from getting into the hands of unelected people.
Indeed, NomNomNom, answer me this. If you are standing in the woods and a wild animal attacks you, oh dear, what shall you do? Run or fight, is there another choice? The Church has reputation for legally fighting attackers. From your personal viewpoint, it might seem to you that a Church should behave like a namby-pamby blubberbubble and ignore attacks. But few are those who survive by ignoring attackers. Again, attacking is an quite different than having and stating an opinion. My opinion that chocolate is yummy should not be considered an attack against a person who's body is allergic to chocolate. These are two different situations; opinion and attack are two different situations, do you see?
mark tomles - You've mentioned two issues and asked me about both? Attacks and publication? I understand "attack" to mean like, you are standing there and someone pops you in the nose, that's an attack. For a business, someone rifles your safe and steals your documents, or sends you a bunch of black faxes, or telephones anonymous death threats to the business. Those same attacks would apply to an individual or to a Church, too. I don't know what guideline the Church uses specifically, to separate "this is an attack" from "that is not an attack".
No, terryeo, I'm not talking about metaphor. That is not relevant. I'm talking about specifics. On regards to the CoS, what do you consider an attack worthy of retaliation?
Yes, I did ask you about two issues. The other one was publication. I can think of no valid reason for such high profit margins for religious material, especially that which is required.
Bad example Terry. This isn't the jungle, this is people asking questions about Scientology and being attacked no matter how mild the questions are. When you do wrong, expect to be called out on it. Scientology has done great wrong and continues to do great wrong. Your leaders are the problem. The material is part of the problem as well but the leaders who enforce Hubbards bad decisions continue to create controversy for Scientology. The Roman Catholic church used to react like this too and it got a lot of people killed and eventaully caused the formation of protestant groups. They eventually learned that responding to controversy only helped push it along. When Davinci code came out, did they go on attack? No. And you know what? Nothing happened, they are still around. Scientology has yet to learn this. But there is a difference with Scientology too. It is just a scam to lure people in and take their money. The religious trappings are just fluff to try to shield them. Your leaders party it up on your money at the Celebrity Centers and on the Freewinds. They play, you pay. They say it is all for "clearing" the planet. Yet there is no sign that the planet is any closer to clear than it was before Hubbard got this whole thing started. They throw up big impressive buildings, yet only the celebs and the upper people get to enjoy the nice things in them. The rest of you are expected to work and work and work. And pay and pay and pay. And for what? Just to body route more "raw meat" into the system to replace those who get disguisted and leave.
You should spend more time over on the ex scn boards. There are over 1300 posting there now. Most were afraid to speak up until we came on the scene. More are getting the courage to every day. All of their testimony points to this not being a religion but a big scam for their money and labor. You would do well to at least read their stories. You may well recognize some of what is going on within. That is assuming of course you are just a Scientologist public or staff who isn't involved in the criminality of this thing directly. If you are in fact knowingly defending a scam, then well... I would suggest you start talking a deal with the feds right now. Because if they come for the top people, those like you on the front lines will be the first who will be thrown under the bus.
NomNomNom - being popped in the nose isn't an attack? HA, okay buddy, if you say so. You don't reply to what is an attack, but criticize my reply. Really Nom, I got a better paying job, improved my enjoyment of life and well, nicer things, after I begin studying Scientology. Not that life is perfect or anything, but is better. And understanding your knowledge (which is what Scientology is) isn't a trip down greased skids, it requires effort and persistance.
mark tomles - Religions have a history of chairitable acts, but of course that is recent history, after Christ let it be known that an individual person has an individual relationship with the creator. Until this relationship was widely accepted, people paid a priest to intervene between himself and God, and the bigger the sin, the greater the necessary donation. Still, individuals made and make voluntary donations instead of Scientology's approach. But as the Church of Scientology grows larger and a bit more wealthy, more of its texts have been donated to libraries, some of its money buys bandwidth, and so on. Then too, it is still purchasing real estate, and that uses up a few million pounds or dollars.
And that seems to be how the Church spends its money, buying buildings (sometimes historical buildings) and renovating them (often to historical standards). Rather than using that money as you imply, Marc, giving away the equivalent of free bibles. Why? Well, I think because Scientology is designed to be helpful to people who are able and who make effort. So that is where its money is spent, appealing to those people more broadly. It does engage in some charity, though through its Volunteer Minister program and some other programs. I think we'll see more charity from the Church, rather than less, as time goes on.
I have a great paying job, a loving family and an enjoyable life because I worked very hard and lived my life morally. It worked for you, but clearly it's possible with or without the tech. It's a matter of th individual.
I'm not sure why you asked nom the same question I asked you, if that's what you were getting at. What is an example of a specific attack against scientology that is worthy of retalliation?
Regarding your comments to me:
I'm not sure how much you've researched the history of the religions that you referenced, but the Catholic Church was not established until after Christ, and some say with Christ's blessing of Peter. The selling of indulgences didn't take place until the 6th century, if I recall. Priests, prior to Christ, were paid out of tithes, or 10% of the person's income. This was not variable based on the transgressions.
I maintain my position that there is no reason for the significant profit margins earned by CoS practices, and your stated exclusion of reaching those who are unable to make an effort is contrary to any other legitimate belief system.
Case in point: There are three belief systems that I'm able to find that have copyrighted their symbols. An islamic sect, Christian Scientists and Scientology. Each has an... alternate... agenda to those stated.
Actually Mormonism has copyrighted some stuff too, including some of their internal texts and that silly angel that is blowing the horn on their buildings. But unlike Scientology, at least they promote family values. They don't disconnect people (they were guilty of this in the past but have changed a lot since) and they don't pressure members to get abortions. Quite the opposite really.
And Terry... lulz. No one's been punched in the nose, except maybe a protestor assaulted by a scifag bullbaiter. We protest and point out wrongs. We don't throw hot coffee on people or rip up their signs or try to grab their cameras and masks. Your cult has not a leg to stand on man. The more you try to defend it the more obvious it is that you are part of the problem inside Scientology.
mark tomles - I do say Scientology has been helpful for me. I don't say everyone must study Scientology. And good, that you have and are creating a successful life.
What you've said about Christ and priests and their pay sounds entirely right to me, although I'm not a religious scholar My impression is; before Christ, you donated to the temple to be forgiven for sins, the larger your sin, the more donation required. This was done (generally) through a priest who essentially represented you to God, who acted as a kind of lawyer for you, to God because God (according to thinking of the time) did not have a personal relationship with laymen. The donated money was not the priest's personal property, but belonged to the Church, which saw to a priest's needs.
Whereas Christianity is based on accepting an idea, Scientology is based on understanding (better) what you already know. Study, audting, and working as a volunteer minister are activities and require at least some small effort. Whereas accepting Christ, so as to be forgiven for one's sins, is an acceptence. I do understand that you disagree with the idea of fixed donations for fixed services, such as, say $40.00 for a communications course. Ok, I understand you would rather see the course be free, with a donation plate at the door, or similar.
I disagree that Scientology has any other agenda than its published agenda, specifically, A civilization without criminals and war .. where the able may prosper.
NomNom, I understand of course, you are sure the Church devalues family. My own experience says otherwise and the people I've known, similar. Disconnection is rarely recommended and then, only as a last resort. You've an opinion, I say it is skewed, you say mine is, and we're at an impass.
If you understand knowledge so throughly that you can immediately apply it then you are better off than the guy who simply memorizes knowledge. Or, stated another way - There is a step between knowing and understanding. Scientology presents methods to take that step with Dianetics (known but not fully understood memories), with Study Tech (known but not fully understood, studied data), and eventually with the spirit (known about, but not fully understood spiritual data). This step from "known about and in recall" to "understood data that is ready for immediate application"; is a larger step that earlier philosophers realized (my opinion). It is the foundation of Scientology and while you might have an opinion about that, or you might even say "I don't believe that's worth a farthing", I've found the idea quite helpful.
And, while you criticize the philosophy's non-availability, you also criticize the availability of Churches and Missions of Scientology. Anyone can walk into one, but you have to walk in, donate and study, before you get it. Or you have to pick up a book and make some small effort to understand.
I say the problem is, NomNom, that you first refuse to understand what you are talking about because you harp on a few people's difficulty,. And that you are so narrowed of view hat you would deny the philosophy to other people. And there's my complaint, really. You think it sucks? Fine, don't walk in the door, don't donate. But, everyone else has the same rights that you do, buddy. And those rights include study.
Actually they don't. Ever had ethics for questioning any of Hubbards texts? I can openly ask questions of Scientology. Scientologists cannot. Vast amounts of testimony over at the exscn message boards will certainly speak to that.
Also, Scientologists don't seem to contribute much of anything to society. All of their resources go towards Scientology, but the world is so much bigger than that. If LRH ran things, man would have never walked on the moon. We wouldn't be making medical discoveries and real scientific discoveries. We would be wasting time going on about body thetans and giving money to fund the partying of the leadership and the celebs involved.
Scientology does affect me. It illegally meddles with my government. It gets tax breaks that are unfair to other religions. It closes public streets in LA so I cannot use them. It places camers in Clearwater and drives out legitamite businesses. It seeks to make sure that the "orgs determine what is or isn't legal". This is why we protest. We will continue to protest now matter how much you try to divert us with "oh but it does these good things". There is little evidence of that and a mountain of evidence of the bad things I have mentioned. This is not a religion. It is a crime syndicate and people have had enough of the corruption and the crime.
NomNom, It appears that you are mis-evaluating single data, and then mis-applying evaluations more widely, overgeneralizing the situation vastly. As just one example, you say:
It closes public streets in LA so I cannot use them.
You're probably talking about the one block area of L. Ron Hubbard Way, aren't you? ALL the property holders on the street (all) agreed there would be no on-street parking. And, it was paved with brick (by Scientologists with permits to pave it with brick) which is cleaned and washed every single day by Scientologists, making it one of the best kept streets in the city. Probably the very best kept street in the whole city. And then, once a week or so, for some of the summer months, the City grants the Church a permit to close the street to vehicular traffic for a few hours. The one long block of L. Ron Hubbard Way. And people have a good time, too. :)
Terry, actually only the Scientologists are having a good time. The non Scientologists are being held in their own homes and not allowed even to leave and go to the store.
There is an article about the problems that people living there are having. Doesn't sound like fun to me. They are upset enough to have gone to the city council about it.
As it stands now, there is a growing movement to petition the city to rename the street back to it's original name and to disallow further closures other than a few times a year. Right now it is being closed a lot more often than that and the residents there are fed up.
I see, NomNom, so it was a mis-evaluation that you did, when you said: It closes public streets in LA so I can not use them. Because you say closed rather than the real situation which was closed to vehicular traffic. And then you overgeneralized your mis-evaluation to arrive at "streets in LA so I cannot use them". Which excludes the simplicity. The street that has occassionally been closed for a few hours (by permit) is a single, one block long street, that you could not park on, anyway. It is closed for driving cars on when the city permit is in force. Yes, I thought so. A mis-evaluated condition, overgeneralized and presented as if it were fact. Tsk.
You apparently didn't even read the article or watch the video in it of the council meeting where 2 people who live there spoke out about how they are not even allowed in or out of their own homes on the street during the closures. They are walking, not driving. There is another vid out there of a woman who is denied walking access across the street despite being handicapped. There is nothing going on with the street at all. The only reason it was closed was because Anonymous was protesting nearby. It was not closed by law enforcement but by a request from Scientology. We have the records, they are publicly available at city hall.
Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP6CHGdnLEQ
The lady sums it up nicely too. Bad people. I hope she wasn't targed for retaliation for that. It's happened before. One lady on LRH way got her garage ransacked after complaining about the closures.
NomNom, I've got to say, you evaluate data oddly. You first complain about the street being closed by city permit granted because of Church request. Then you say:
The only reason it was closed was because Anonymous was protesting nearby.
If the street was closed because Anonies are protesting, why are Anonies complaining they can't leave their home?
Your emotional overtones come through. But the situation your emotional invective lies within is poorly presented, mis-evaluated and over-generalized. This makes understanding the actual, real, situation, difficult or impossible. Oh hum.
Sorry Terry, you are in a no spin zone. You can't play with words to get yourself out of being caught in another bald faced lie. Everyone can see what is meant here. My evidence speaks for itself in those videos. Your reaction to irrefutable evidence is to misdirect the conversation. That will not work on Anonymous. It won't work as well on most of the public either. The street closures are not vehicle traffic only. They are also closing the sidewalks and keeping people who live on that street from entering or leaving their homes. Watch the vids. If you can't accept that something is wrong here, then there is little hope for you.
I've stood on that street during an event. Intimidation exists in the mind of the beholder. Hahahaha. Dig this, the city grants the permit, U don't want the city to grant a permit, your path to get the city to refuse the permit lies before you. Quit carping at me, who had a hell of a good time, quit complaining to to the public who, generally, enjoyed the music and refreshments, put your rocks in one pocket and motivate the L.A. City council against the permits. But you know what I think will happen, Hahahaha
You might talk to a reporter named Mark Bunker who experienced quite a bit of indimidation on LRH way while doing a story. And the public don't like you too much. How do I know? They come by in a river of honking cars and thumbs up during our protests.
hax0r - Date: 2008-10-10 - asks: Tell me more about how exactly Scientology helps you to understand your knowledge, please.
There are two situations.
1. You (or I or anyone) knows something. We memorized the multiplication table, or we read about riding a bicycle, or we graduated from University with a degree in Engineering. This isKnowledge in Recall.
2. You (or I or anyone) understands something. We have used the multiplication table to calculate how many gallons of pain it will take to cover the wall. Or we have comfortably ridden a bicycle for a few weeks. Or we worked as an engineer for a couple of years. This is understood knowledge.
These are two different situations When Ron Hubbard defined Scientology in 1952, he spelled out that Scientology would be a study of knowledge, to understand what you know. And this is the common thread through the 35 millions words. An article at Wikinfo expands this idea. http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Scientology
Posted By: Not anonymous
Date: 2008-10-31 22:19:33
Terryeo you said:
" NomNom, I understand of course, you are sure the Church devalues family. My own experience says otherwise and the people I've known, similar. Disconnection is rarely recommended and then, only as a last resort."
Watch this video of Tommy Davis @ 2:25 into the clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSS178Q-4eo
Im sure you wouldnt misrepresent the church with misinformation now would you? Of course not! Therefore Tommy Davis is a liar!!!
Shame on you cult members. THIS IS WHY anonyous is against you (along with 99% of the general public).
Terryeo wrote: "I disagree that Scientology has any other agenda than its published agenda, specifically, A civilization without criminals and war .. where the able may prosper."
Well that all very much depends on who you mean by "the able" doesn't it?
I don't think I'm able to accept the authority of Little Davey. I don't think I'm able to accept the existence of body thetans. I don't think I'm able to accept that open discussion about body thetans is unethical.
I guess this is all due to my lack of understanding, right?
Tell me about body thetans, Terry. Help me understand.
Certainly Mr. Grumble. To the degree that your posts respect others, to that same degree you can expect polite replies. Certainly. So let me point out the obvious. The authority of Little Davey has almost nothing to do with Scientologists, except a select few Sea Org, and a very few others, who are Scientologists. And it is a disrespectful way to state what you don't understand, anyway.
You should not accept the existence of "body thetans" because no one has told you what that means. That term has never been defined for you. It would be enormously foolish to consider yourself to "have" something that has never been defined, except by myth making, critical websites. My personal suggestion, since you will not find it defined anywhere, just throw it away and quit trying to understand it. It is not that you can not understand what someone is trying to say. But you don't have what someone is trying to say. You have read stolen bits of what someone is trying to say. The meaning of some of those terms is not available to you. You simply are not going to get it because the words are not defined for you. No one has stolen those glossaries. And there may be a little more to it than the stolen documents. What you are doing, you are mis-evaluating the data you have. You can not know its importance because some of its words are in a foreign language and you don't have that dictionary. Do yourself a favor. Just get on with living, go out and party or something, have a good time.
Terryeo wrote: "You should not accept the existence of "body thetans" because no one has told you what that means."
Can you tell me what it means? Do you know whether or not you have mis-evaluated the data you have? Do you know whether or not Hubbard mis-evaluated the data he had?
Terryeo wrote: "Just get on with living, go out and party or something, have a good time."
As an Illegal PC I guess it's not like I have a lot of choice in the matter - but I still enjoy discussing Hubbard's work. Aside from the space opera mythology there's a lot of interesting ideas that Ron explored when he was developing the OT levels. It's profoundly frustrating to me that people such as yourself - who dediciate so much of your life and sacrifice so much of your time to scientology - are unwilling or unable to discuss these ideas openly.
Ohhhh Terry.... Oh Terry Terry Terry. What are we going to do with you. Thetans don't exist according to Tommy Davis, the spokesman of Scientology. They are UNRECOGNIZABLE to him, as he said in May on CNN in front of millions. So here you almost say they don't exist, then you start talking about "stolen documents". So they don't exist but we stole documents on them? We stole documents on something that doesn't exist from Scientology? Is that what you are trying to say here Terry? Wow. Just wow. And I thought Tommy screwed up bad on CNN. They should put you up on there to put a capstone on Tommy's epic fail.
And go out and have a party? I did on Halloween. Had a great time, then came back to this once I was done. It's ok to take some time off, but when there's an important job of work to do, such as taking down an evil cult, well you eventually have to get back to it.
NomNom. Good that you party, bad that you misunderstand, worse that you confuse one word "thetan" with all secondarily craeted terms that include it. I think what you first need to do (after you recover from the last party) is understand a sequence.
First to exist and first of importance and first and prime is an idea. Someone has an idea. You, me, your uncle Jerry, anyone. Hey, just because you party doesn't mean you can't have an idea!
Second, some dude will spell out his idea and then, in the future, here is what happens. He says a single word in place of his whole idea.
Galileo did it with a telescope. He and his party goers came up with solarcentric after he massaged some data out of his telescope. Planets go around the sun, not all heavenly bodies go around the Earth. That was a new idea and it got a new label.
So too with the idea behind the term thetan. There is an idea, like the ideas behind solarcentric, chocolate and cold fusion, the idea might or might not be valid, but there was first an idea. Then, after the idea, a word was used to represent, to stand in place of the author's idea. Do you follow? The idea is dominent, the written word (which only represents it) is secondary and subservient to the idea which is being communicated.
You are free to understand (or not) the idea represented by this term; thetan. Enjoy. And you certainly misunderstand what Tommy said.
First off, parties. You think we need to party? I've seen a picture of you on one of your sites and you look like you party less than Rudolph Hess. I think the closest thing you might find to a party other than a David Miscaigave worship session at the IAS might be at the local Commore 64 fan club.
That said. Ideas like what you mentioned need to go through the scientific process and method. Real science, not "Layfayette Ron Hubbard said it, it must be so". Has the whole idea of thetans actually been tested scientifically? Has the e-meter been tested scientifically in proper studies with a control group? Has any of Scientology actually been put to real scrutiny by real scientists?
Gallileo didn't just peer through a scope and all of astronomy sprang from it. It was the effort of thousands of people. Others (and Gallileo did some work on this too) came up with models and mathematics to explain what he was seeing. These have undergone intense scientific scruitiny, unlike Scientology which is just a pile of things you are told to believe.
Honestly, I don't care so much if you believe in thetans or not. That isn't the point. A lot of people believe in stuff that is as wacky or more so and take it on faith. That is not our beef with Scientology. If that was the problem, we would be protesting all religion, not just focusing on Scientology. The problem is the way Scientology is run, who runs it. How members are treated inside. How Scientology handles criticism (via attack instead of dialog). The outrageous prices charged for this knowledge, far above what it costs to print it. Where does all the money go? I can tell you it isn't being used to pay for nice food for staff or to fix up a lot of the buildings judging by the decay I have seen in places like the Toronto org. It does pay for the celebrity centers, the parties there, for David Miscaivage and other very top level people to live in obscene luxury though. And then there is the indentured servitude that is the RPF. That is pure evil there. That is our problem with Scientology. You can believe what you want, but the way people are treated as cash machines and cheap labor is an abomination. We are here to put an end to that. Will Scientology survive as an idea? It might. But will the current management outlast us? No. They will not. There will be change, and we will fight to the last for it.
ONN - Don't go all wierd on us. You saw a picture of me on "one of my sites"? No, you didn't. I dont have "any sites". I don't post any pictures (that I recall right now, anyway). Don't go all off topic on us, okay?
You talk about science and scientific method and, apparently, you feel mankind should depend on science. I agree, mankind is sensible to depend on science. And science has ideas here and there and makes up words to stand in, as representing those ideas. Cold Fusion is a good, fairly recent example. An idea, then a term is used to represent that idea.
But we were talking about the idea behind the term, Thetan. You exist, right? I exist, we all exist. Fine, what shall we call our individual existence? "Me" works, has been used a lot. "Soul" works, but has been overused and is subject to being misunderstood. So along came Hubbard with a new term for an individual thought being, who is an eternal being, who sometimes motivates a human body. You know, we start using a baby's body and forget all that went before. Its a new idea but it doesn't make any other idea wrong, really. It is a sort of additional idea. You can still be "created by the Holy God aboe". The difference being that you aren't "created by God just before you're popped into a baby body", do you follow? So he used this new word, "thetan". You see how easy it is to understand an idea? Now of course, we can talk about whether that idea is true or not. And I'll tell you, I got an opionion about that, but you are welcome to your individual opinion about that, too. :)
No, I can not. Not because of any pledge I have made but because I have not encountered that information.
Illegal PCs may petition. I don't know the whole situation. I have heard that as the Church has grown, as the golden age of knowledge and tech have come into force, that petitions from illegal PCs are more easily accepted than in earlier years.
Terry, I am a biological computer built out of chemicals, water and microfiliments of electricity. I am an advanced neural network of billions of microscopic processors. I am the most advanced piece of software on Earth along with six billion of my fellows. I was crafted by billions of years of evolution and natural selection.
Does that squick you? Does that freak you out? It's an idiological difference. But you know what? I don't care what you believe. We can argue this or that about that but I'm not going to protest you for what you believe. I will protest however the abuses that happen inside.
Terry, there is a reason we protest Scientology and not any other religion. Seek out those reasons.
ONN, why shouldn't you believe you are: a biological computer built out of chemicals. Make yourself happy. But there is an area of knowledge you have not explored that I point toward. You may think you have explored it because you have read all kinds of criticism about it. But you haven't explored it.
Nor have I fully explored it. But I've explored enough to become convinced that we are all enternal beings. And this doesn't require your agreement. Nor does your belief require my agreement.
Terryeo wrote: "I have not encountered that information"
If that is so, then any claims you make about whether anyone else understands the concept of body thetans are without merit.
Terryeo wrote: "Illegal PCs may petition."
It's an option I might have considered in the past, but after spending some time studying the practice of scientology "from the outside" I've come to realize that any rationization of the organization's numerous outpoints is founded entirely on lies and deception.
Furthermore, the totalitarian regime of sec-checks, knowledge reports, ethics handings and PC folders is diametrically opposed to my personal understanding of the concept of "spiritual freedom".
Grumble - the point I made was that no definiiton of "body thetan" appears, anywhere. So how can anyone understand what the term means? I don't have that information, but then the stolen documents don't contain it, either.
Scientology has 7 organizational divisions and Ethics is one. If an individual is proceeding on the Bridge, Ethics has nothing to say to them. But when an individual is not proceeding, then the Ethics division comes into play. It is the traffic cop that directs disorderly Bridge traffic. It prevents such individuals from screwing everyone else up. And it gives direction, then, to those who find themselves unable to proceed on the Bridge. The reason I say this is because you mis-characterize Ethics.
Is it just me, or does it seem by comparison that the so-called "Terryeo" posting in this thread has a significantly different rhetorical style than the poster in the other articles? I suppose it hardly matters since the Scientologists appear to have let this "identity" go dormant now.
But still, I find it strange. . . .wonder how many folks they have putting out counter-spin under this moniker?
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