Topic: War
Modern War and Modern Religion A summarization of war in the 20th and 21st centuries and how modern religion factors inby Mr. 1up
(Libertarian)
Wednesday, April 30, 2008
So there's this rumor going around. It's an ugly rumor about the history of religion and wars, and how they are intertwined. I've never been one to write long-winded articles, and this one is no different. It is short and concise, using the major wars of 20th and 21st centuries.
Iraq War (2003 - Current) The debate wages on about what this war is truly about. Most people I know who consider this a geo-political war (as I do), find myself to be against the war while those who believe religious belief is the driving factor, take this far more personally, fear the enemy and support the war. Michael Shurer's book: Imperial Hubris, supports my opinion in the matter. Islam has been turned into nothing more than a rallying cry for terrorists. A flag, if you will. Something to get behind when there is seemingly no other reason to carry on. This makes Islam and essential part of perpetuating the war, but the argument that has been presented is that religions start wars. And even so, when did we start blaming the flags for wars? I'm sure no one blames the stars & stripes for decimating Japan with nukes.
Vietnam War (1959-1975) Before, during and after America's involvement in the Vietnam conflict, this war was always about political ideology. That Communism was the best form of government and democracy had no place in the world. The fall of Saigon effectively ended the war and Vietnam is still a socialist nation. Religion doesn't even enter the debate as I have little doubt the majority of them were Buddhists. Korean War (1950-1953) Much like the Vietnam conflict, the Korean conflict was fought for political control over a country. Elections were held, the DPR got pissed and declared they ruled the country. They crossed over and bing-bang-boom, you have a war on your hands. Lloyd will actually be happy to know that the majority of North and South Koreans either have no official affiliation or are atheists. Although...atheists getting in wars? Stop the presses!
WW II (1939-1945) Hitler started this war, under the idea that there were inferior people in the world and that the "master race" needed to weed these inferior beings out and steamroll them out of existence. Or is it? If I'm to defend Christianity against the charges leveled against it, I have to be willing to apply the same reasoning for Darwinism (note: Darwinism may not be the right way to interpret "survival of the fittest", but for lack of a better term, that's what I'll go with). Hitler used Darwinism like a flag to rally all of the German's against a certain sect of peoples. The notion that 100% Germanic people were better, faster, strong and smarter than everyone else was a nationalistic affair. And its promotion by Hitler, to rally the people against the world effectively created an undying, unquestioning belief in that. All of this is going, when in actuality, this war stems from Hitler's ambition and an over reaching League of Nations mandate system, which effectively treated German's as the red-headed step child of Europe.
WW I (1914-1918) There were many reasons why WW I started. Entangling alliances, imperialism, autocracy, assassination, trade barriers, etc. I could go on. None of them count for religion. Much like the world war which preceded it, there isn't much an argument sustaining that religion had much or any cause for starting the war.
I could go on. The countless wars which have been fought, are being fought and will be fought are not a product in any one belief in a higher power. In most cases, it's about ambition. To blame an entire group of people for the actions of the individual is ignorance defined. It's how hatred is able to perpetuate itself with seemingly no effort at all. So don't blame Christianity. Don't blame God. Don't blame Darwinism and certainly don't blame those who would speak out against these wars.
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2008 Mr. 1up, all rights reserved.
Published: Wednesday, April 30, 2008
Last modified: Wednesday, April 30, 2008
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The war in Iraq is supported by multiple religions and atheists. The dividing factor is that the insurgency is a more fundamentalist version of Islam that targets fellow Muslims who don't believe that they should fight the Coalition forces. The insurgents want nothing more than power over those in Iraq. With all of the loses that they have accumulated via Iraqi and Coalition forces, you would think that they would stop fighting. Why do they not? Religion.
Not all wars are caused by religion, but religion is used as a motivator. North Koreans are not completely atheists they worship the state. The Soviet Union banned religion, but replaced it with the worship of the state. True rationality and Atheism can only exist in a society that allows the free worship of religion while making it legal to criticize any belief.
Let us not forget the irational belief that national socialism was worth spreading. No Hungarians were begging for Germany to come in and overthrow thier country. The same can not be said for the Iraqis who escaped Saddam's regime.
As long as there is irrationality, there will be wars. Terrorism and Human rights abuses are savagery that is worth suppression via police and military.
But your argument was that religion starts wars. This goes back to the comparrison I made to flags. You said yourself that religion is used as a motivator. Well so are flags. Lets start blaming those, too! The comparrison sounds silly, but really, don't you think it is obvious how people's leaderships ends up playing people like fiddles?
You are correct that rationality comes from the complete spectrum of thought. To be able to practice and criticize the same activity. However, my only goal through this article was to make you look at war from a different angle. To see that blaming Christians for wars amount to blaming Marlyn Manson for a school shooting.
Irrationality causes wars. Religion is irrational. Therefore...
"To see that blaming Christians for wars amount to blaming Marlyn Manson for a school shooting."
Let me identify what non evolved religion is starting today's wars: Islam. (Christianity is no longer one of them. Today thier armed crusades only exist in Northern Uganda.)
Radical Islam starts wars and needs to be defeated. Europe caves in to their every desire while the US takes these idiots via wars and art.
As seen here:
www.jesusandmo.net
You blame Islam for the war. How? All the evidence of this war's start points to U.S. occupation of Saudi Arabia and previous Western interference in Middle Eastern affairs over the past 5 or 6 decades.
Your assertion that religion is irrational hardly has any weight. You believe that religious belief is somehow anti-intellectual and unscholarly. The problem is that a true scholar can not believe in all of this religious nonsens...right?
All this posturing is rather ironic when we remember the original meaning and history of the word intellectual and its cognates intellect and intelligence. In the classical sense of the term, intellect means essentially “understanding,” but in its technical philosophical and theological usage, the term refers to the capacity of the soul and mind to perceive and understand spiritual realities.
Secularists nonetheless attempt to define the rules of the debate with believers by claiming that only people who reject spiritual things can be rational and intellectual. Historically, of course, their position is simply absurd. If believing in God makes one irrational and anti-intellectual, one must, with a wave of the hand, dismiss most of the great thinkers of world history—Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Erasmus, Luther, Pascal, Kierkegaard. And these are only a few names from the western tradition, to which could be added hundreds of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists and Confucianists.
This again stengthens my argument that it is the individuals, not the belief of many, that cause conflict.
Radical Islam blew up the World Trade Center, the USS Cole, The US Embasy in Kenya, the Madrid Train, busses in London, the Airport in Scotland, a club in Bali, attempted bombing of LAX, the Marine Barracks in Beruit, they have hijacked numerous airplanes in the 1980's and 1970's. This has nothing to do with rationality, but irrationality.
Yes many great thinkers had irrational beliefs Sir Isaac Newton was also an alchemist. We don't remember him for alchemy but his laws of motion and gravity.
Religion is irrational and we need to see that it is a source of Authoritarianism that leads to a loss of freedom when it is adopted by a majority in a democracy.
Islam didn't blow up anything. Again, you take the blame from the individual and place it on the entire group. You say you're an atheist in the libertarian community, well than how does a libertarian justify placing a group of people into a box?
Religion should never be invlved with politics. Looking at history, the ability to manipulate the masses through the word of whatever "God" is taught, is powerful. Religion and faith is a powerful thing and you would certainly not disagree with that. It's why you feel it should be done away with. But I refer back to my previous post. Prove to me that religion is airrational. You keep asserting it but bring nothing to the table to make it stick other than the actions of certain individuals who do not make up the majority of those who practice their faith.
People need to see what? You need to stop getting opinion from the Zeitgeist documentary. "Religion is just a means to control". I've heard this many a time. Last time I checked...I had free will to do as I pleased.
Posted By: Jake, the champion of the constitution
Date: 2008-05-02 02:38:06
Dear Mr. 1up,
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, ambition (greed?) may well be the driving reason for wars, but religion can be an enabler, ie if you think you will go to paradise, its a little easier to don a suicide vest and blow yourself up.
You said religion should never be involved with politics and this such a part of a typical Westerner's psyche that as we discuss we take this for granted, but, shift your perspective for a moment. In the Middle East, religion and government are tied together - one does not exist without the other, in the eyes of the Muslim mainstream. Try reading Mike Scheuer Imperial Hubris, page 2, para 1 of this book review.
You asked Lloyd to prove that religion is irrational, the reverse question can be asked is religion rational?
Zeitgeist, Esoteric Agenda, etc etc are all just meant to provoke thoughts, not tell you what to believe! You can believe whatever you want such as in the Flying Spaghetti Monster from Mars. From the people who I have talked with who saw Zeitgeist, if their perspective was religious to start with, the films drivel, if they dont believe in religion, it was great and made sense, if you are on the fence, the film was confusing as all hell.
I suggest reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins to help answer your question is religion rational/irrational. He rants at times, but you can judge for yourself, its at least thought provoking and a quick read.
But tying ambition to religion, will leave you with a favorite quote of mine from Seneca the Younger. I think it can be appreciated even by the religious:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
Anything can be an enabler. This is exactly my point when I say that, yes, people rally around religion but it is not the cause of what's happening. And I have read Imperial Hubris. It's an excellent read. But that book serves my view. Because yes, religon and politics in the Middle East are inseperable, but Shurer still believes that the cause for the attacks was directly related to foreign meddling...not Islam. Islam is the rallying point, comparrable to the United States flag.
The first third of Zeitgeist provoked me alright. It provoked me to slap the taste out of them. The Bible is nothing more than an astrological book? Are you joking? With all of the falsehoods they used as info I'm surprised the usual skeptics didn't rise up and shoot it down. Oh...wait...of course no one is going to defend Christianity other then the Christians. My bad...
Richard Dawkins...I have many unpleasent thoughts about him. All you have to do is watch his interviews from the Ben Stein documentary to get a feel about how he feels about people like me. He comes from the school of thought that the belief in something you can not see is irrational,and as I mentioned in an earlier post, that train of thought is in it of itself irrational. Hate typically is.
Albert Einstein was not a Christian, but he has one of my favorite quotes about religion:
"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom."
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2008 Mr. 1up, all rights reserved.