Topic: Constitutional Issues
Why Aren't the LDS Defending the FLDS ? Why hasn't a veritable Mormon revolt erupted over the continued detainment of FLDS children in Texas? Is persecution of unpopular religious sects now acceptable to LDS society?by Carter Braxton
(Libertarian)
Sunday, April 27, 2008
"When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations." - JD 21:8, John Taylor, 31 August 1879
Well here we are.
The latest news on the Texas FLDS case is that a nursing 2-year old has been hospitalized after being forcefully seperated from her mother for several days. And two other young FLDS boys cannot even be accounted for.
I first want to applaud the Mormons who have stood up so far to defend their fellow American citizens against this egregiously unconstitutional attack. The protests outside the Utah Jazz games are gaining more and more attention to the horrendous acts of the State of Texas.
But what about the other 5,700,000 Mormons who call this country home? Have they so easily forgotten the trials of their Church in its infancy? Or worse, do they view the persecution of the FLDS as "just deserts" since the LDS Church officially considers the FLDS Church to be apostate?
Ignoring history and failing to defend the rights of others is a commonly made mistake. But Mormons, above all, should be intensely aware of the injustice that can be committed against a small and unpopular religion by their neighbors. Members of the early Mormon Church suffered everything from confiscation of their land and bloody massacres to the murder of their first Prophet, Joseph Smith.
I'm not asking the LDS to try and adopt the FLDS kids. I'm asking them to try to reunite them with their own families.
To shrink from this controversy at this juncture in history would be simply unforgiveable.
More articles by Carter Braxton on this topic:
The Family Under Attack - Does the State Own YOUR Children? http://www.nolanchart.com/article3580.html
Raid on FLDS Ranch Shows US and Texas Constitutions in Shambles = Your Child's DNA Up For Grabs Next? http://www.nolanchart.com/article3487.html
"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
- Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984). Nazi concentration camp survivor.
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2008 Carter Braxton, all rights reserved.
Published: Sunday, April 27, 2008
Last modified: Sunday, April 27, 2008
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Mostly because Statist Christians in America wanted thier anti-polygamy laws enacted. Polygamy made the church look like kooks. In order to grow as a religion they had to DISTANCE themselves from MASS ACCEPTED KOOKERY. That is why they now oppose polygamy, they don't want to be associated with it. It is the same reason that some Libertarians (Like Penn and Teller) distance themselves from 9/11 truthers and global warming promoters.
The real reason the LDS Church disavowed polygamy was because the US Government was threatening to seize all church property and throw the whole leadership in jail. John Taylor (the author of the leading quotation in the article above) actually lived the last years of his life on the run.
Lots of LDS members are; the institutional church isn't, because so many people already confuse the two. Also, when a judge asks the LDS to monitor the prayers of the FLDS, that's more than just a little wrong. If the LDS agreed, it would imply that they think monitoring prayers is OK - and it simply isn't. It's as wrong as it gets - other than child abuse.
Read my last article. There was no evidence. No charges. A bogus anonymous tip about abuse and the state seizes 400+ kids, DNA tests them, forbids the mothers (even nursing mothers) to stay with their children.
Now kids are sick and dying. If someone tried to take my 2-year-old from my wife they'd be asking for nothing less than hot lead.
This whole thing is plain old unconstitutional (i.e., illegal). The only question now is what are we to do with these folks (judges, cops, social workers, etc.) who've chosen to break the law?
My guess would be that the mainstream LDS might not want to go on the record supporting an organization that sanctions the raping of 12 year old girls by 50 year old men. Just a wild a wild guess.
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-27 20:46:37
Whatever your religious nutjobberdoodooheadery, abusing children is against the law.
The problem isn't that the state intervened, the problem is that the abuse ran right through the whole effing cult and it will unfortunately take time and expense to sort out.
"Ignoring history and failing to defend the rights of others is a commonly made mistake. But Mormons, above all, should be intensely aware of the injustice that can be committed against a small and unpopular religion by their neighbors. Members of the early Mormon Church suffered everything from confiscation of their land and bloody massacres to the murder of their first Prophet, Joseph Smith."
Talk about ignoring history...the Mormons 'suffered' nothing that they did not bring on themselves by supporting the illegal ( yes, ILLEGAL) acts of Joseph Smith, who, by the way, was doing exactly what Warren Jeffs and the other men involved here are doing.
Read the official history, Carter. The Mormons wanted all the benefits of being a state but did not want to follow the laws of the land. That is the only reason they had a 'revelation' about giving up polygamy. As for confiscating their land, agreed, that was unjust on the part of the government. However, the Mormons had a long history of spitting in the face of any laws they did not agree with, including polygamy, which was continued by the same leaders who penned the 'manifesto' even after they ordered others to stop the practice.
Joseph Smith was a liar, con man, adulterer, pedophile and all around criminal. Just read the accounts of the young girls he forced into marriage at age 14, 16, 17, etc. And he did not die a martyr. Get the facts. He and his people were chased out of one state after another because they were conning other men's wives, sisters and daughters into their disgusting lifestyle. Persecuted? Boloney! Joseph was in Carthage Jail for ordering his followers to commit an illegal act (destruction of the Expositor printing press). He ordered that because his salacious behavior was going to be exposed. While in jail, he sent for followers to break him out of jail (another illegal act) and that is who he thought was coming when the 'murderous' mob advanced on the jail. His 'buddies' had refused to follow his orders. Not saying I agree with vigilante justice, but the men in that area had had just about enough of old horndog Joe. As for being murdered, technically, yes, but you failed to mention that he also was sporting a gun (illegally slipped to him by a friend to be used in his planned breakout) and used it when the mob attacked, injuring a few people himself. John Taylor,quoted above was also there with Smith at the time of his death.
So, he was planning escape, and planning to avoid prosecution so he could continue his wicked ways, he just did not succeed. Was his 'murder' justified? No, of course not, it should have been handled by the courts. But, let's face facts. If it had been done the proper way, he would not have been there to stand trial. So, he is at least as guilty as the others and would not have been in half the trouble he got himself and his followers into if he would have kept carnal desires in check.
And "Bloody massacres"? Have you read the latest? Old news, but the LDS church has admitted their ancestors were the ones responsible for the Mountain Meadows Massacre, over 100 men, women and children killed in cold blood. The real kicker? The church, in the ultimate move to control anything that may one day reveal evidence of their past, now OWNS the land where those bodies lie and controls what is there for memorials. Just goes to show you, when you have enough money, anything is possible.
And in case anyone is interested, the supporting evidence for the things I have mentioned are available in the internet, in the diaries of the early Mormons as well as Joseph Smith, and in the official documents of the LDS church as well as on their website...which by the way, tells a lovely (sanitized) story of Joseph and Emma, with no mention of his polygamy. The only place you will find that it tucked away under 'polygamy' and then under 'additional information', and even that is incorrect.
Thanks to the internet, people can now see the LDS church for what it really is, warts and all, and THAT is why they are not helping the FLDS children and Moms. The FLDS history is their history, and they have been lying about it for so long they can't shift positions now. It also shows that their 'family first' mantra is BS. It is IMAGE first, even at the cost of those poor little children who are where they are because of the legacy of a lecherous con man and decades of people gullible enough to keep sustaining him as a prophet.
As for no proof of abuse...what about 20 females identified as having born children while underage? And the sick baby? Out of 460+ it just may be possible that is a pre-existing condition, you may want to wait for the facts to come out before convicting the state. The two missing boys, according to the state, are not 'missing', the facts are not clear on that situation either. We should see what the facts are there also before condemning anyone.
Lastly, the quote from Taylor, what a joke. This from a leader of a church who calls all non-Mormons members of the 'great and abominable church", the "the Whores of Babylon" and the "church of the devil".
And let's not forget his comments stating that blacks were put here to "represent the devil"
John Taylor: " . . . after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation a upon a the earth as well as God;.... " (Journal of Discourses, Volume 22, page 304.)
And polygamy/prostitution
Discourse By President John Taylor October 6-7 1884; Delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Monday and Tuesday. (Semi-Annual Conference,) October 6 and 7, 1884. (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 25:, p.22) Talking about plural marriage/polygamy
"We know how sensitive the Prophet Joseph was to introduce this principle. He knew the feeling that was against it. It had been taught from the days of heathen Rome down to the present time that a man should have but one wife, which has resulted in the prostitution of many of the fair daughters of Eve as mistresses."
Can you say hypocrite?
Taylor had followed Joseph Smith's teachings on polygamy, and had at least seven wives. He is known to have fathered thirty-five children. By 1885 he and his counselors lived in the "underground", and were frequently on the move to avoid arrest. During his last public sermon Taylor remarked, "I would like to obey and place myself in subjection to every law of man. What then? Am I to disobey the law of God? Has any man a right to control my conscience, or your conscience? No man has a right to do it".
Religious freedom, the excuse to abuse in the name of God.
Not only should the LDS, institutional and individuals, be speaking out but every group with marriage/union, religious freedom and alternative family rights issues should be as well.
If there is evidence of abuses they should be prosecuted just like every other crime in America - case by case. If there is evidence of rape they should be prosecuted and then some. So far I see little more than slip-shod police work and multi-state coordinated discrimination. btw I am both LDS and a former law enforcement officer.
Taking a child from a REAL abusive home and putting them in the foster care system can be a saving grace, but difficult at best. Most of these children are coming from homes with loving siblings and parents. Forcibly separated from that and thrown, individually, into the system will be disastrous for many.
The abuse here is definitely being perpetrated by the State of Texas.
It is absolutely incredible that the LDS church stands by in silence.
I am not at all surprised that the LDS wants nothing whatsoever to do with Warren Jeffs' group, who is himself serving time as an accomplice to rape. Jeffs is a racist who appears to have set himself up as a cult leader. I could care less about his execrable views but I do not agree that statutory rape of under-aged girls is a constitutional right.
The children are not being abused by the authorities and if as early reports indicated there are under-aged mothers and/or pregnant 14 year olds in the group, then justice should be done. If, on the other hand, the authorities overreached and acted inappropriately that will become clear as well. At this point patience is better than hysteria.
This may be upsetting to the children, but it is not intended as punishment. Sexual activity that involves a) underage people, and/or b) lack of consent is a felony, any 'marriage' notwithstanding. Anyone who knows about it, facilitates it in any way, or even looks the other way is also engaging in criminal behavior. Welfare fraud (a.k.a. 'bleeding the beast') is also some kind of crime. Excessive physical discipline is a crime. So is abandonment of minors and placing them in conditions where their welfare is endangered (without money, education, a place to live, and cutting them off from their former family and friends, i.e. the Lost Boys). Improper euthanasia of pets is at least a misdemeanor. Failure to report births and deaths violates vital statistics laws and hampers criminal investigations and civil actions. Subversion of justice (in Hilldale/Colo City) where the police enforce religious laws and doctors sign women into mental hospitals as a form of discipline. The genetics situation may not be criminal, but certainly represents poor judgement.
If you ask why the LDS haven't spoken out against the injustices against the FLDS you might as well ask why the LDS haven't spoken out against any number of social injustices, some levied directly against the LDS themselves (anti-LDS bigotry directed at Romney by evangelical pastors) and others further afield (child abuse for example). The LDS are hardly the 'take up signs and chant and picket' crowd. At best we are the 'write a strongly worded letter' crowd. While I DO think you can ascribe some reticence by the LDS to support their fellow citizens (the FLDS) in their time of need to a general distaste of the FLDS lifestyle and presumed apostate status, I think the largest contributors to LDS reluctance are much more innocent. We just aren't the type to squawk. Besides, I think most Americans are ambivalent about the FLDS plight. Sure we worry that the witch hunt has gone too far. But we also see some of the blame falling on the FLDS themselves and worry equally that the allegations may be true. Why do you expect the LDS to see things so differently than their Non-LDS fellow citizens? I personally think the FLDS deserve our support. I think the witch hunt has gone too far. But why make it an LDS issue at all. Shouldn't it simply be an American issue? Shouldn't it be an issue of simple decency rather than an issue of what faith we belong to? As an LDS convert, I have no more ties to polygamy than other LDS have to my Polish-American heritage. Would I expect other LDS to support any Polish causes? I am assuming you see the FLDS and LDS as sharing this common bond albeit a historical one. As a convert I find polygamy to be generally weird and difficult to explain to the non-LDS I know. I don't have any common bond with the FLDS other than being fellow Americans. And that in itself is enough.
ummm....as an american and an LDS person--i am appalled at how the state has handled this situation. I have spoken up--at work, on blogs, letters, etc. As someone before mentioned--i'm not exactly the picketing, protesting on the sidewalk type person.
I frequently see people arguing about 'which side' (state or FLDS) is wrong in this situation. But many fail to see that BOTH are probably wrong.
Rape, incest, molestation, forcible marriage are ALL grievious abuses (and should be prosecuted if found to be true)--BUT so is the wholesale rounding up of ALL CHILDREN in the compound. I have been involved in CSD investigations before, and the general way things work is 1) receive a tip/complaint of abuse; 2). do a thorough investigation; 3) work out a plan with the family and/or take to to court for removal of the children from the home if found to be abusive.
The state of texas has decided to do #3 before #2---and TO ALL THE CHILDREN. What happened to treating them as individuals, and doing INDIVIDUAL investigations.
AGAIN--abuse in families is a gross crime--but so is state abuse.
The abusers (AND THE INNOCENT WITH THEM) are being abused(by the state), and the one doesn't justify the other---at least in AMERICA! There is a higher way for handling this!
From what I am gathering here from your constant rebutal to other people's comments in defense of your article, is that these children are better off being sent back to the ranch to be sexually molested by perverts than it is to help them escape. Do you also believe that Catholic children should be forced to be molested by priests because they are catholics?
By chance are you a member of the FLDS?
Or do you just think that perverts have a god given right (by religon) to molest children?
I wondered why they arrested the women and children instead of the guilty molesters. But, what can I do even if I am an LDS? I have no more authority over that injustice than the Lutherns have over the injustice done in the Catholic Church. I think something should be done, but it seems that this is the kind of justice, or injustice "we the people" want.
We're fighting the Baptist Texas Fascists at the above site!
By the way, DO THE MATH..
31 - 25 = 6
The "new" 25 are the SAME ONES that they
PREVIOUSLY
were listing as ADULT women that they SUDDENLY just the other day
RECLASSIFIED
as
UNDERAGE (like you really can't tell the difference between a 14 year old and a 19 or 20 year old, right)? And this coming from the same people that wouldn't accept a NOTARIZED BIRTH CERTIFICATE from an 18 year old proving she was an adult and they STILL kept her under False Imprisonment for about a week before they finally relented and let it go.
IRONY of IRONIES, even Nancy Grace DOESN'T BUY IT! To wit, watch this Nancy Grace video:
Find the "mothers believed to be minors" video and watch that as Nancy and another women scott at 25 NEW "teenage" girls suddenly being "found." This "new" report today is actually
"From what I am gathering here from your constant rebutal to other people's comments in defense of your article, is that these children are better off being sent back to the ranch to be sexually molested by perverts than it is to help them escape."
There's no charges of sex with underage boys, so why were all the boys taken? There's no charges of sex with prebuscent girls, so why were ALL children taken (including those under 12?).
Why are nursing babies being seperated from their mothers? To protect them from pedophiles? Gimme a break.
Plus, look at the reasoning behind the raid that keeps popping up: "theydidn't even watch television", "they need to be socialized".
The point I am trying to make is that this is a modern-day witch hunt.
AND it's unconstitutional.
Just because the police might find evidence of sexual abuse doesn't give them the right to round up 400+ Catholic children on a bogus anonymous tip. So why can they do it to the FLDS?
To the LDS who think it's a nice Mormon trait "not to squawk" too much, please read "Not Commanded In All Things" by Ezra Taft Benson (1965):
Another warning: You and I sustain one man on this earth as God's mouthpiece - President David O. McKay one of the greatest seers who has ever walked this earth. We do not need a prophet - we have one -what we desperately need is a listening ear.
Should it be of concern to us when the mouthpiece of the Lord keeps constantly and consistently raising his voice of warning about the loss of our freedom as he has over the years? There are two unrighteous ways to deal with his prophetic words of warning: you can fight them or you can ignore them. Either course will bring you disaster in the long run.
Hear his words:
"No greater immediate responsibility rests upon members of the Church, upon all citizens of this Republic and of neighboring Republics than to protect the freedom vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States." (P.P.N.S., p. 157)
As important as are all other principles of the gospel, it was the freedom issue which determined whether you received a body. To have been on the wrong side of the freedom issue during the war in heaven meant eternal damnation. How then can Latter-day Saints expect to be on the wrong side in this life and escape the eternal consequences? The war in heaven is raging on earth today. The issues are the same: Shall men be compelled to do what others claim is for their best welfare or will they heed the counsel of the prophet and preserve their freedom?
Satan argued that men given their freedom would not choose correctly; therefore he would compel them to do right and save us all. Today Satan argues that men given their freedom do not choose wisely; therefore a so-called brilliant, benevolent few must establish the welfare government and force us into a greater socialistic society. We are assured of being led into the promised land as long as we let them put a golden ring in our nose. In the end we lose our freedom and the promised land also. No matter what you call it - communism, socialism, or the welfare state - our freedom is sacrificed. We believe the gospel is the greatest thing in the world; why then do we not force people to join the Church if they are not smart enough to see it on their own? Because this is Satan's way, not the Lord's plan. The Lord uses persuasion and love.
Hear again the words of God's mouthpiece:
Today two mighty forces are battling for the supremacy of the world. The destiny of mankind is in the balance. It is a question of God and liberty, or atheism and slavery . . .
Those forces are known and have been designated by different terms throughout the ages. "In the beginning" they were known as Satan on the one hand, and Christ on the other.
In Joshua's time they were called "gods of the Amorites," on one, and "the Lord" on the other. . . . In these days, they are called "domination by the state," on one hand, "personal liberty," on the other hand; communism on one, free agency on the other. (P.P.N.S., pp. 215-216)
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-28 19:14:41
Dude, Mr. Carter. You are a nut! You are verifiably deluded and should not be posting publically anywhere.
Heaven is not a place, but an idea, created by a bunch of silly people long ago. You have been brainwashed into thinking this bit of fantasy is true and now you are posting silly nonsense about this nonsensical idea and trying to use it to make some kind of weird point.
I am embarrassd for your parents, who must have lied to you and done this great disservice to you, and for you for not having the capacity to understand just how silly you sound.
God is an idea created by man to replace his confusion over his own self awareness. God is not a real thing at all...
You are free to spout your nonsense all you want, this is, America, after all... But I am just as free to tell you that putting this silliness out into a public arena simply demonstrates that naivete and delusion are alive and well and well worth mocking.
31 of 53 teen girls at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had baby
"More than half the teenage girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.
A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. He didn't specify how many are pregnant.
"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," he said. "
Apparently it was just a couple or a few months ago that Texas had changed their laws on the age of marriage by parental conscent from 14 to 16 years old. So I think the so called "under-aged" girls who are pregnant are within the months that it was legal. The Media likes to sell crap. The real issues just wont sell for the media.
yeah I'm LDS and I defend every human right, yes including the rights of the FLDS people. The reason why the LDS Church wont speak out in defence of the FLDS church is because the LDS church is FEDERALIZED. The LDS church is too much embeded into the system along with a lot of other churches. Now-a-days most of us are counciled by our church leaders to basically be slaves to the government with word such as "sustain and obey the laws of the land/man, including unrighteous laws. "You either comform or get out." quote by a Bishop
"Apparently it was just a couple or a few months ago that Texas had changed their laws on the age of marriage by parental conscent from 14 to 16 years old. So I think the so called "under-aged" girls who are pregnant are within the months that it was legal. "
Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? The age of consent in Texas is 17 and it has been for many years.
So, do you support 50 year old men raping 14 year old girls?
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-29 16:29:41
Once you remove religion from this, (and its claim on immoral behavior justified by belief), you basically have a large group of people practicing the art of satisfying old, horny men's wants for the taste of nubile flesh...
I am apalled that this type of behavior is supported at all.
I am still waiting for someone to provide a clear Constitutional case to support child abuse.
For those who are interested, here is an article by Marci Hamilton in Findlaw - The Rescue of Children from the FLDS Compound in Texas: Why the Arguments Claiming Due Process Violations and Religious Freedom Infringement Have No Merit.
She makes a solid argument why the officials from child protective services acted appropriately.
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