Taxes have been around for a long time. On the eve of the great American "tax day," I would like to point out that Jesus and Ron Paul both have some interesting things to say about taxes.
Over 2000 years ago, political spies confronted Jesus with a "trick question" in an attempt to force him to speak "political heresy."
"Is it lawful to pay taxes to Cesar (e.g. the IRS), or not?"
In our modern day, Ron Paul has spoken "political heresy" by suggesting that we eliminate the IRS. He has been confronted with similar questions, usually from media pundits echoing the thinking of the brainwashed American masses.
"How will we pay for government?"
The answers given by both Jesus and Ron Paul have been widely misunderstood. Asking to see a Roman coin, Jesus began his answer with a question.
"Whose likeness and inscription is this?"
The answer was easy: Caesar.
"Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
What is the core principle here? Ownership. It all boils down to the question, "Who owns me?" Whether you are a Christian and answer "God" or whether you are a humanist and answer "Myself," in neither case is the answer "the government."
Jesus pointed out that, even as the image of Caesar was stamped on Roman coins, the very image of God was stamped on His property, namely the people He created. Consequently, government has no legitimate claim upon the life of a man, which most clearly includes the fruit of his labor.
If you are a humanist and deny God's ownership of man, I would expect that you even more vehemently deny that the government owns you. Consequently, the very concept of an "income tax" should be utterly repugnant to all self-respecting humanity, regardless of religious persuasion.
Like Jesus, Ron Paul, Champion of the Constitution, is also a strong opponent of government ownership of man.
"Accepting the principle behind both the income and the estate tax concedes the statist notion that the government owns the fruits of our labor, as well as our savings, and we are permitted by the politicians' "generosity" to keep a certain percentage." - Ron Paul, A Republic If You Can Keep It
Dr. Paul has battled this principle of self-ownership on several fronts, including the income tax, the right to life, and the evil of military conscription.
"A free society rejects all notions of involuntary servitude whether by draft or the confiscation of the fruits of our labor through the personal income tax." - Ron Paul, In the Name of Patriotism
Are you a slave to the federal government? Does Washington own you? Whether or not you are willing to answer "Yes" to these questions, both Jesus and Ron Paul agree - if you pay a tax measured by the fruit of your labor - i.e. an "income tax" - you are acknowledging that the government owns you and can demand and take what it wants.
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Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-14 09:57:10
26Then God said,(A) "Let us make man[a] in our image,(B) after our likeness. And(C) let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; (D) male and female he created them.
28And God blessed them. And God said to them,(E) "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
I find this to be one of many grotesque and highly immoral notions promoted in this book of yours.
One of the reason we are a dirty species of folks, is that many of us through this wretched book believe that we have a right to destroy nature because we have been granted "dominion" over it.
"It is my god given right to cut down these trees" is a statement often heard in these parts by simple minded individuals who actually believe this nonsense.
Jesus also said, to get to heaven you must give up everything, and hate your mother and your father...
Again, why do you people follow a book that tells you that the punishment for non belief is death and the punishment for being an unruly teenager is death?
The bible is an immoral book and should not be used to contemplate anything that should be thought about rationally like governance.
Scott, don't create a "straw man," demolish it, and then think you've made a valid point.
God placed man in the garden to "tend and keep" it. The concept of dominion taught in scripture is a stewardship of resources, not a "right to destroy." Scripture is replete with teachings that promote authentic environmentalism.
I, along with you, condemn any simple-minded notion that man has the right to destroy nature. Such ideas are based on the limited and self-serving misinterpretations of some, not in any way on the words of scripture. They are nothing more than a characature, and the rational response is not to condemn scripture but to take to task anyone shallow enough to so misconstrue the bible's teaching.
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-14 10:48:44
I did not "create" the strawman, it was created by people who believe that the words in a book are direct dictates from some imaginary celestial being.
The fallacy here is in the adherance to such a book, not in the interpretation of it. Interpretations are subject to... well... interpretation. "Subdue it" in the context you linked to, means, to me, to subdue it. Subjugation is a cousin of the word subdue.
The point being, the very notion that this book has any direct say in rational discussions about anything leaves all rational discussions up to "interpretation". What is irrational is using a book of fairy tales to try and form governmental policy.
The bible tells us to worship a god who supposedly tells its people to kill all, but pick out the virgins and share them amongst yourselves...
How is this helpful, rational, or to be valued by any intelligent, thinking person? It is not.
A book that declares the punishment for homosexuality is death has no business having influence on a society that wants to shed superstition and atavistic ugliness and solve its problems like rational, thinking adults.
Scott, my article is about revealing the underlying principle of the concept of an "income tax," and we've gone pretty far afield here. My observation is that both Jesus and Ron Paul are in agreement that such taxation constitutes a claim of ownership by government.
Who owns you? Do you admit to such a claim of government ownership or not? I would welcome any relevant comments, but please limit them to the topic of the article.
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-14 11:14:51
I recall the author of this piece introduced the name "Jesus" in the title of the article. I noticed that the bible was referenced with a link within the article. I also noticed that the writer of this article made the equation "Ron Paul is equal to Jesus in regards to taxes", in this article.
I say your fundamental premise, then, becomes faulty due to the faulty assertions that you made.
If you want to talk about rights and taxes, leave the mumbo jumbo out of it, and I will be happy to address a rational assertion.
I say and have pretty much always maintained, that "government" is and should be a collective tool of the people. Taxes are a necessary component of this collective formation. Even "income taxes" if the people predominantly agree that those taxes are necessary for the common good of all.
I also recognize that our federal "government" has over run the basic notion of government being a collective tool, and has granted itself other powers outside of this basic definition. Therefore, I think "we the people" need to remove this power from the federal government, and get back to a government that is "useful" and not "harmful" to its citizens.
One of the ways to do this is to deny it funding, ala income tax.
Scott, you don't have to recall anything: it's all right there in gloriously plain ASCII, and you still got it wrong.
There is no assertion on this page outside of your post that RP is "equal to Jesus" in any way whatsoever. Creator didn't make that assertion (I suspect he wouldn't dare), and you are responding to it, and that is the dictionary definition of a Straw Man argument.
Creator, I thought the article was inciteful and it made me think differently not only about RP's words but Christ's as well. I appreciate it when someone with a differing viewpoint from my own offers me a new way of looking at something.
It would be great if others could put aside their problems with God for a minute and do likewise.
Well, Jesus didn't exist but the principle stands. It's only sad to see how this Freedom loving country has been going through a transition towards a Socialist Democracy and eventualy a Communist/Fascist State.
We are supposed to be a Constitutional Republic.
No more comparisons of Dr. Ron Paul (a real being) with supernatural fictional pagan based characters please,.. it just makes everyone who reads this a bit dumber.
Yes, "Jesus" is in the title of my article. Yes, I refer to the bible, a book about him. Yes, I assert that Jesus' and Paul's views on taxes are parallel with regard to their common position that government does not own men.
Where is the "faulty assertion" or "faulty premise" in that? Your arguments are entirely off point. This is like trying to discount nonviolent civil disobedience ala Ghandi because you don't like cow worship or bald Hindus.
As we both agree that defunding and removing power from the federal government is a laudable goal, and that eliminating the income tax is a valid strategy, why not expend your energy promoting that goal rather than in a diatribe against the bible? Once again, if you have something relevant to say, say on, but so far nothing you've said relates to taxation vis a vis ownership.
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-14 11:56:41
"Please stop spreading hatred of christianity through misunderstanding and incorrect methodology.
And all sin deserves death, not just one specific sin, namely homosexuality. So lets not get off topic here and make silly assertions."
Ummm, who grants the right to dictate what "sin" is?
Ted Haggart?
No sin deserves death. Including the bedroom rights of those you disagree with. Once again, we are shown how disgusting the bible makes people think. It is an ugly, dangerous piece of literature that deserves to be shown for what it is...
It has no business in the affairs of rational, thinking human beings.
You have to take into consideration that an authoritarian approach has been done by government as well as religion through the ages. People with a stronger foundation and knowledge on what Religion is, specially the Judeo/Christian model and how it only has been a psychological tactic to numb the masses in order to control them will feel in limbo when seeing a comparison between the good doctor and a fictional being.
The world is waking up to realize the evil behind the concept of Religion (sheep in wolf clothing hiding behind the word "love"), so any comparisons of Dr. Paul to Jesus, Krishna, Horos or any other SUN GOD is unnecessary and insulting to our intelligence.
"In God We Trust" should be changed to "In Us We Trust".. and we better start doing that soon or we will be the New Soviet Union. So, what's next? ... 'Santa Claus, Ron Paul and The Federal Reserve'?... maybe you can write about that and how Christmas gifts should not be taxed.... but please don't post it.
Scott. Do you have the ability to cut down trees? Are you able to destory those trees? Are you at the same time also able to plant those trees? Are you able to take a fish and eat it? Are you also able to feed that same fish and help it breed?
Yes. Because you have been given dominion over these things. That is a FACT. You can dislike how others use their dominion, and in many cases I would agree. However, it is still a FACT that you were given these things, and so was man.
As for sin. Let he without sin cast the first stone. I agree that putting people to death is wrong wrong wrong. And so would Jesus. I will let god decide what needs to be judged and what doesn't. And so long as the person isn't breaking the 1 ultimate universal law of not taking away the freewill of another person, then they are free to do what they wish. If you think about this 1 universal law, and what that entails you will see the obvious wrong things, which we can all agree on. Murder, theft etc. I think jail time is appropriate in this situations(not death penalty, which I think is the ez way out).
You have taken what the bible says here, applied your own interpertations on it, and condemed anyone who mentions something from the same book as wrong. When if you just take a small step back, try to find the truth in what is being said and not how some people use it for bad things, you can see what is being said is true.
Yep, that is right. Jesus, a man that Charlatans now use to tell you that the biblical tax of tithing 10% of your income to the church, agrees with Ron Paul!? Oh Flying Spaghetti Monster! What the hell is wrong with Libertarians? Next you are going to tell me that Ron Paul and Jesus agree about homosexuality. Jesus has said so many words that contradict the image of a loving man-god that most Charlatans will tell you about. If the story about him is at all true, then he was an evil person who convinced people that if you do not believe in him, then you will be sent to a place where you will be tortured forever. I thought Libertarians were against torture? Oh, it is only okay when an invisible man in the sky does it? Bah Humbug!
If you think that the government doesn't own you and doesn't own your property, don't pay any taxes for a few years and see what happens.
On the ineffectiveness of Civil Disobedience when taxes are concerned: If you wish to change the system, you must work within the system.
If you don't pay taxes, you will be incarcerated and removed from the system.
While in prison, you can work to change the system much less effectively than if not in prison.
Therefore, you must pay taxes until you fix the system.
If you think that the government shouldn't own you and shouldn't own your property, work within the system to fix the system.
There is a simple and very good reason why people hate on christianity. It's because you have christians who use the bible for their own personal reasons and gain. They use it as a way to judge others, and do the exact opposite of what the bible and Jesus actually says.
I know because I was the same way. I completely reject the way the majority of christians interput the bible - or more importantly how they use it. And for awhile, I rejected anything said in the book because of that.
But I learned things in life, and found out certain truths through other experiences. And from that, I started to notice that the things said in the bible were in fact true, but not in the way it is presented.
The problem is that the majority of people focus merely on the symbol, and forget what that symbol means. Once this happens, you have people who worship the symbol/image only, and then anyone using this symbol/image must be right. As such, while people focus on the image, the things which brought that image to what it was is slowly changed from underneath until today the symbol represents nothing that it is supposed to.
This is blantently apparent in politics, and the US. All these people rally behind the flag/image of the US, but do not realize or understand that they are changing what the symbol stands for. Same thing has happened in religion.
And it's been this way for over 1000 years. Just look at the crusades and the evil committed in the name of Jesus. But it was done by the catholic church, the first beast of revelations and that should be apparent to all.
Scott isn't hating on christians really. He's hating on the symbol of christians, and what those who follow only the symbol of jesus have become.
And FYI: Jesus came to earth and did what he did to show YOU and everyone else the correct way to live and be. It is through his PATH, not through worshipping his symbol, that the things spoken of are found. The worship of symbol/image is what is said of the anti-christ.
The system is pretty much irredeemably broken. There are countless patriots who have been "working within the system" for decades only to be rebuffed, incarcerated, and destroyed. Only those who have not questioned or resisted "the system" remain ignorant of its tyranny.
While I agree with you that government acts completely as though it does own us, "working within the system" has proven utterly ineffective and I will continue to assert that "God owns me" and NOT government.
There is a time to "work within the system" and a time to tear it down. Each man must determine for himself what time it is and act accordingly. There may be elements of both in any individual strategy.
Ok Creator, will you please stop paying income tax to show us how it is really done? I would be most interested in seeing the result. When are you going to attempt to tear it down? At what point should we just go ahead and tear it down?
If you'll follow, for example, some of the links from my "April Fools" article called Ron Paul Single-Handedly Abolishes the IRS! you will find the necessary information to answer the questions you have raised.
Further insight might come from learning about the Downsize DC organization ( http://downsizedc.org ) which teaches the most sensible and effective "work within the system" approach that I have seen in my lifetime.
The bottom line is that despite the present intimidating level of power the federal government has achieved, there are FAR MORE of US then there are of them, even if you count only the relatively small (but growing!) numbers of "US" who are aware of the treachery. And so, following awareness with inaction is merely evidence of cowardice.
It is pointless to argue with this Scott from Oregon. He apparently does not have an open mind, and cannot begin to think how there might be more to life than being "worm food" after our bodies rot and die, because I have not seen anywhere that Jesus Christ advocates anything BUT love.
Alas the homosexuality argument always comes into play but again, where does Christ advocate hatred towards homosexuals? You as an individual have the CHOICE to do whatever you want to do without God intervening in your life, so don't go and complain because you simply can't do whatever you want to do. Reject the morality of Christ and suffer the consequences, should you be wrong, but you are inciting hatred towards Jesus Christ and Christians with your vitriol.
The main problem here is ignorance and we can see how this affects our government due to most people being ignorant on Ron Paul, the same is said of the ignorance towards the Word of God.
Ron Paul tells the truth. He's a true Christian AND statesman. Badmedia is right that the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) being the antichrist. It is not the true church of Christ. The Bible is very accurate in it's predictions. The new world order is described where no man can buy or sell anything without the mark of the beast. The technology is here to implement this system, national ID cards and a financial crisis worsening by the day for the masses; Most however will be surprised to learn what the mark of the beast is...it's Sunday worship. The RCC made itself the anti-christ (or "in place of Christ") by changing the Lord's Sabbath or "mark" from Saturday to Sunday. In so doing she is making herself out to be greater than God, rejecting His divine authority in the process. Sunday laws will be enforced worldwide, those that accept the mark of the beast (have faith in the beast) will be destroyed, those that reject it (have faith in God) will be saved. It's very simple. If you're interested to learn more Nicholas at remnantofgod.org has done some amazing research.
The Muslim says: "Reject the morality of Islam and suffer the consequences, should you be wrong, but you are inciting hatred towards Allah and muslims with your vitriol."
The Jew says:"Reject the morality of Yahwey and suffer the consequences, should you be wrong, but you are inciting hatred towards Yahwey and Jews with your vitriol."
The Budist says: "Reject the morality of Budda and suffer the consequences, should you be wrong, but you are inciting hatred towards Budah and Budist with your vitriol.
The Atheist says:"Reject the morality of man and suffer the consequences. Should man be wrong, you will be remembered as a legend and hero for your suffering."
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-14 14:44:08
"It is pointless to argue with this Scott from Oregon. He apparently does not have an open mind,"
"Reject the morality of Christ and suffer the consequences..."
All I ask is that you keep your nonsensical beliefs out of the political arena. It is emphatically evil to use a book that flat out states that women are to be subjugated by men as a source for anything in regards to modern governance.
Right now, it is a prerequisite for a presidential candidate to stand up and declare him or herself deluded in order to earn the votes to become president of the United States.
This is an abomination and deserves to be ridiculed. God does not answer prayers. There is zero evidence a god exists. The belief that one knows what a god "requires" is delusional.
The bible is an immoral and hideous book full of infanticide, rape, incest, genocide, scapegoating, blood sacrifice and graphic depictions of an imagined god that promotes the keeping of slaves, as well as the murder of entire villages and the taking of virgins for your personal use.
It has no place in a modern society with a developed sense of morality. It is an ugly, evil book propagated by deluded, irrational people who lie to their very own children to aid in its propagation.
It is immoral to lie to children, and it is immoral to try and use this hideous text as an argument for anything regarding modern governence, just as it would be immoral to try and use the Quran or that ridiculous Book of Mormons to try and govern from.
You don't have the slightest knowledge about the Bible. Yet you inveigh against it with obvious hatred. It appears all very subjective.
Dr. Thomas Warren debated Dr. Antony Flew regarding the existence of God several years ago. The book is available on Amazon. Dr. Flew was a world renowned atheist. He has since recanted his position. He is certainly not a Christian, but now believes in God.
Perhaps you would care to read the debate and see if you can improve on Dr. Flew's arguments. Or you can just ignore the evidence and go on along with your fellow travellers and continue to insult those of us who are Christians.
Creator's illustration was just his way of making his point. I don't think it was intended to touch a nerve.
BTW, on an aside, the Beast of Revelation was more probably Nero Ceasar. Comparing the writings of the Jewish Historian Josephesus who reports on Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem and all of the Judean Fortifications with the Biblical prophecy lends to this conclusion.
The lessons Jesus taught when He said, "render unto Cesear...", were many. Who owns you is one. Another had to do with honest wieghts and measures. There are several Biblical mentions of such. The Roman denari of the time had beed "clipped." Making the coins worth lss than their original value. Another had to do with the image and inscription on the coin which proclaimed Cesear to be a deity. Many Israelites had been paying the temple tax with denari. In pointing out the coin's image, (and inscription), Jesus had accused them of defiling the temple with the graven image of an idol. So many Christians read that passage and assume that Jesus has just condoned taxation, when nothing could be further from the truth.
OK, since god is everywhere and can understand almost any language even written Modern English, then I will do something really scary....
I Lloyd Kempson challenge god to reveal himself to all mankind via a live appearance on Fox News on April 16th at 7:30 PM Central Daylight Time.
If you do this god, then Lloyd Kempson will allow you to send his rotten soul to Hell for all eternity where it will burn, suffer, and be tortured in a way that makes water boarding look like child's play, forever and ever until you decide that it is ok and that it can be set free.
For some reason most people oppose torture, but when your holy word describes the inhumane, cruel, and evil acts that you have in store for the people who don't believe in a Jewish man who was born of a virgin who got the death penalty over 2000 years ago and our Calendars have been based on his death, who claims to have been an illegitimate child of yours that for 18 years you, god, did not pay child support for.
So what do you say god do we have a deal?
Be not afraid Nolan Chart readers, for god is not mocked. The only way that god can not be mocked is if there is no god!
I mean think about it if you mock Lloyd Kempson does that mean that he has been mocked? Of course it does Lloyd Kempson can be mocked even if he does not accept, know of, or respond to the mocking. God on the other hand is impervious to such comedy. And therefore does not exist.
you humanists are missing the point; where are our rights derived? if not God, then it is man. no wonder the secular humanist philosophy is insufficient to garauntee sovereignty from tyrannous government, you acknowledge that other 'men' give you your rights. slander us believers all you would like, you fail to see the importance of the concept represented here. whether it is just a book or not, consider that communism was developed as an offshoot of athiesm, as Marx himself admitted; since God, and the commandments not to steal, covet, murder and lie, are the foundations of our constitution and bill of rights. whether they were explicitly christian, or deistic in influence is irrelevent.... take a 'Creator' out of the mix, and you are left with nothing. as a wise man once said:
'if man will not be governed by God, then they will be governed by tyrants'. take your pick
since God, and the commandments not to steal, covet, murder and lie,
The other 5 commandments are to keep religion alive. So you are telling me that before the jews received those laws that those things were thaught to be ok?
Does this mean that you should not shoot a thief if he threatens your life? After all, thou shalt not kill.
So DX10 why was genocide ok when the Jews took out the indigenous Israeli population? Were there wars justified? I mean really, let's say that you find out that there is no god, would you then go ahead and murder people? Would you steal? Would you become a swinger and go to swinger conventions to commit adultery? Would you covet your neighbor's ass? Would you bear false witness in a court of law? I mean really. Is it a lack of faith in god that causes these things to happen?
Not sure I understand the question. When did the Jews take out the indigenous Israeli population?
I know that in all systems if you lose your reference you cannot rely on your conclusion. And, if you are your own reference then it would seem that could lead to any conclusion.
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-14 20:08:11
"you humanists are missing the point; where are our rights derived? if not God, then it is man"
The idea of "rights" is one of the great intellectual attainments of man (humankind).
It was helped along by such people as Paine and Jefferson, but it is nothing more than an idea held aloft by adherance to the idea itself.
Remember, the "rights" we all take for granted were not afforded women or slaves at the time the "rights" (I am talking American politics now) were concieved. These were new ideas added to the original idea, as humans morally progressed.
God does not "grant" anything. There is zero evidence of that and much to refute all aspects of that very expression. There is no evidence god cares about individuals. There is no evidence god even exists...
If there were evidence, it would have surfaced by now. Lord knows, humans have searched the globe for it...
The notion is a delusional lie told over and over and accepted by the gullible.
Any manner of scientific inquiry into this notion will come up with the same conclusion. "God does not grant anything."
"take a 'Creator' out of the mix, and you are left with nothing. as a wise man once said:
'if man will not be governed by God, then they will be governed by tyrants'."
Actually, the American experiment was based on the notion that god has no business in politics. Congress shall make no laws... etc... America was founded as a secularist society. Unfortunately, the nutters are growing in population, and we now have a situation where deluded nutjobs like Haggard or Roberts or Falwell can have the ear of the president and are blocking together and directly influencing election outcomes.
To become president of the US, you have to openly admit you are deluded. I find this unappealing, to say it kindly.
It's amazing all the feelings that get stirred up when you mention the name Jesus. Some say he was fictional, yet many historians from Jesus' era wrote about him (not just the New Testament), so that argument is weak.
Maybe the comments posted here to this article would be better posted in the Atheism section. Most people have made up their minds for or against God, Jesus, and creation Arguing here in a comments section is mostly futile.
However, I am always amazed that there is so much hatred towards Jesus and how what he said gets taken out of context. Maybe if Scott read the New Testament in context instead of twisted scripture, he might understand the meaning of what Jesus said.
Jesus spoke of love and gave his life so that others would live. Jesus said to "Love your neighbor and love God" and summed it up by saying that this is what it is all about. If you don't agree with the second part, at least you could try the first part.
And Scott, if you read the New Testament with an open mind and open heart, maybe, just maybe, the truth would set you free...
As an atheist and Ron Paul supporter, I find this discussion interesting. I think we all need to remember that while trying to convince others that our belief is the correct one is OK, we should never attempt to force anyone to agree with our beliefs. Can you say "Blowback"?
RP's position (if I understand it correctly) is that we derive our rights from our creator, which is described by the founders as Nature, or Nature's God. This should satisfy both theists and non-theists, as it implies that our rights are inherent as human beings, and cannot be taken from us by others (including government).
Peace and Freedom to you, no matter your religious beliefs!
see!? i was wondering when someone was going to say 'Nature', or if i was going to have to.
Nature is the concept of order and if there is a goddish type critter somewhere out there that created everything then the 'nothing' it started with would be the ultimate chaos, because 'nothing' inherently means... well, nothing- which in turn causes the chaos because the act of naming 'nothing' makes it something, but it isn't anything, yet its still there. (didn't a math problem like that kill someone once?...)
ANYWAY, Nature (ie, natural, naturally, natural order) is god. not God's Creation, but god directly. the only way to create something with no resources is to become that something. order supplants the chaos, god becomes it's own creation.
I don't understand why there is so much fear of the bible and religion in general. For historical and sociological context I would put religion right up there with the writing on the walls in ancient Egypt. I don't think religion should be dismissed so easily or feared so irrationally. I suppose I would fear it more if I wasn't sure of my own beliefs.
As for the analogy I actually enjoyed that. I would rather be owned by an invisible God rather than the government anyday.
God would only be invisible though if I didn't believe he existed. :)
Do you exist? Are you an intelligent being with a conscious? As such, there is by default atleast 1 god. Not to say you are god in full, but rather you are part of god. I believe the bible talks about this in the context of our souls being the breathe of god. all connected, all coming for the same source, etc.
The truth is, we are all god in part. We are all connected. I have experienced this connection before, and as such I know god is real, and it's not some invisible man etc. I was without belief the same as most of you. I am a prove it kind of person. And it can/will be proven to you, but you first must seek to find it. To be open minded on this topic is to have questions.
If you don't understand something about the bible, or god in general. Then ASK. Don't ask me, don't ask your preacher, ask yourself and think about it. The answers will come to you either in thought, or through syncronicity as minor personal events unfold that provide answers in how you perceive them. To be open minded is really just to ask the questions. The bible says seek and you will find, and I have found that to be true.
I have no problems with other religions. I do however have programs with religions who focus only on image. You'll find that those who focus on image are the ones who do the bad things in the name of religion. Those are the ones who want to kill anyone who doesn't worship the image of Jesus, or the image of Allah etc. Because when you look at the basic principles and philosophies of each of them, you will see they are all basically the same. The differences are mostly in image only, and due to cultural differences/places/events. If you can see past that image, then you will see the truth I am saying.
In order to get these understandings, then you have to start looking at things from mulitiple perspectives. Putting yourself in the other sides shoes. I did, and I found myself.
What is being done to the world is dualism is being pushed. The you are either with us or against us saying. That if you are not christian, you automatically serve satan. That if you are not in favor of anything the US does, then you are unamerican or a terrorist. As such, the 2 sides automatically become the evil against the other. Even though in reality both sides really want the same things. And this is how evil works. Divide and conquer. Seperate people where you can to pit them against each other. The 3rd party waits and automatically picks up the victor. It's done ALL around you. In politics, in religion everywhere. It's probably very easy for most of you to see it in politics right now. Well, it goes deeper and further.
Because is this also not exactly what has been done in this country regarding the constitution? Do we not have people who say they follow the constitution, but then don't really? Do the actions of those who ignore the constitution while calling themselves Americans make those of us who understand and follow the constitution wrong? Do the actions of those people make the constitution and what it stands for wrong? I certainly don't think so. And notice how the people rally behind the image of the US doing bad things in our name, and those blind to symbol/image only do not see it, regardless of how much we try to point it out?
So, if you reject what organized religions have done, such as I have, then it is perfectly natural for you to be against them. However, it is to be caught in dualism to automatically accept the rest as good/right. The wise/smart man will be able to look past the actions and see the truth. As you have done this in politics, it will only take a small amount of effort to do the same in religion. You will find that what is being said is near exact opposite of what you likely think.
John 14 in the bible should remove all the religious fighting. Why people want to limit god to only caring about 1 set of people, or 1 image is beyond me. John 14 says that even if not Jesus, or this religion, god will send what is refered to as the holy ghost to you so that you will know the truth. It is silly to believe god cares about image. He cares about what you do, and how you live your life/treat others. Jesus was the path and the correct way to live. By following him and his example, you will have learned the lesson of this earthly existance, and be allowed to move further.
I didn't get my knowledge from the bible, or a preacher. But after learning what I know now, I seen it repeated in the bible over and over. I see it repeated in other religions as well. Time for people to wake up out of this dualisitic, binary thought of 1's and 0's and take a look at other peoples perspectives for a better understanding.
Here's how it happened for me. I'll bet it's not very far off from alot of the atheists.
I looked at organized religion and all the bad things it does. I seen a system of control that used fear to get people to do what it wanted. I did not want any part of such a system, and therefore thought the entire concept of god was just something to get people to act a certain way. I became and atheist.
After some thought, I became to realize I was being a bit bullheaded in my thinking. I realized, that well there is all this universe, it must have come from somewhere or something. So I became a deist. I believed there is likely a god, or an intelligent being/source. But that nobody knows what it is.
And so, I began to wonder. Which is to say, I began to seek god. What is existance? What is 4d? What is time, does it actually exist, or is just the rate in which my brain processes things. And soon after I was knee deep studying quantum physics, and just logical things in general. I am also a programmer, and I had been looking into creating AI, and so I was looking deeply into how thoughts work, and how intelligence is able to sort out fact/fiction. And the perceptions of the intelligence at certain points.
Like - how do you know wind exists? Because it changes directions. However, if the wind were a constant 0. You would never know it was there. People could talk about the wind, but you'd say it were invisible myth. Until the day the wind changed.
And you look at the story of adam and eve, and this exact same concept is being presented. Adam was all good, but adam did not know or understand this all good. He did not know evil, and so he was "ignorant". The snake presents the tree of knowledge, and adam eats it. As such, evil is presented to adam because the only way adam can understand good, and not just be good is to see that change. Adam is kicked from the garden of eden(ask the universe, to this prison planet earth) until the day when adam has learned good and evil, and chosen good and understands why. Jesus and those like him came to show what was good/right. And so why does evil exist in the world? Because we must see it and understand it to gain knowledge. Without it, we become ignorant. Just as was ignorant of these truths until GWB started doing his thing. In an odd way, I have many thanks to give him.
Answers would come to me in the oddest ways. Many times I would have what I would think was a unique thought, and was to me at the time. Then I would see it subtley repeated to me in life, or someone else mention near the same thing only a day later. Freaked me out, thought I was going crazy for awhile. Now I realize they happen all the time, the difference is that since I was seeking, I was looking and more aware of them.
So anyway, I gained an understanding of things in general. Looked at things from mulitple perspectives. Came to realize certain truths etc. And then I started to notice bible quotes here and there. And I noticed - hey thats right. But not in the way the church has presented it. Of course, the chruch presented much imagery, where I was now looking at it more philosophically. And that was the turning point to where I am today, a firm believer.
So I encourage you to take a deeper look at things, rather than looking for ways to dismiss those who are doing wrong/bad.
Posted By: Francis Mortyn
Date: 2008-04-15 13:55:17
This is a bit weird:
"you humanists are missing the point; where are our rights derived? if not God, then it is man. no wonder the secular humanist philosophy is insufficient to garauntee sovereignty from tyrannous government, you acknowledge that other 'men' give you your rights. "
Cody assumes that for rights to exist, they must be derived. And with "If not God then man" he introduces the logical error the "false dichotomy."
He assumes that rights must be derived from one of mankind's many gods. That theory, taught by Jean Bodin, was very popular with the Stuarts and Bourbons who adhered to the "divine right of kings." The king was held to be God's representative.
According to Bodin, authority originates in God and is transmitted downward through the king to the common people, whose duty it is to obey. The American constitutional model is a direct repudiation of Bodin's model.
In America, rights inhere in We the People, who then may assign powers to government, which are limited and revocable. Government is not "of god," as St. Paul taught, but is of We the People and disposable by us.
That's why the Second Amendment is so important, and so uniquely American. We the People must remain vigilant, because WE are the source of rights and powers.
The fundies may attempt to trace rights to deities imagined by homeless nomads lost in the desert in the Bronze Age, described in their campfire tales. We the People of the United States know that whatever rights exist are inherently and originally ours, not handouts from outside.
Posted By: Francis Mortyn
Date: 2008-04-15 14:09:29
Discussion of the Ten Commandments calls for honest acknowledgement that they do not originate in ancient Israelite religion.
Nine of the ten are pretty visible in the Papyrus of Nepseni, part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, as the Negative Confession. This is long before the life of Moses.
Interestingly, although the Egyptian document is so much older and is on papyrus, it still exists, and can be viewed at the British Museum. The alleged tablets of Moses were supposed to be on stone and so might reasonably be expected to still be around somewhere, but seem to have disappeared into a black hole along with Joseph Smith's gold plates.
Oh yes, that accounts for nine of the ten - but what about the tenth? Well, that's sabbath-keeping and it is found in the Babylonian codes, and was probably learned by the Israelites when in captivity there, the event which introduced them to literacy and much of their laws and culture.
Posted By: Francis Mortyn
Date: 2008-04-15 14:27:19
It's regrettable if Ron Paul doesn't know it yet, but his philosophy of self-ownership is in fact what the Humanists have been trying to tell us.
A statement of this is in HUMANISTIC JUDAISM (Summer 1993). I think the author is probably Rabbi Daniel Friedman of Deerfield, Illinois.
Here it is:
Lacking evidence of a supernatural power who created human beings and, therefore, has authority over them, Humanistic Jews accept no power of any kind which, by definition, owns human beings.
This principle of self-ownership stands in sharp contrast to the central theistic belief that people are the property of a creator-God or of his appointed agents on Earth, and, as such, owe him obedience and are responsible to him for their actions.
In the absence of an authority that can legitimately assert a claim to power over others, it follows that no human being is the property of another.
All persons are the sovereign owners of themselves and have the right to live and to use their bodies without interference, however they wish - so long as they acknowledge the equivalent self-ownership of everyone else. This latter proviso is the essence of social responsibility.
Now, would Ron Paul disagree? Fundies might not accept human self-ownership, but would Ron Paul reject it? I don't think so.
Self-ownership is an excellent concept, and honest humanists ought to recognize the implications:
Namely, if you truly believe in self-ownership, you also must acknowledge the sovereign right of any self-owning individual to submit themselves willingly to another authority.
Christians willingly and deliberately submit themselves to the authority they consider to be above all others - the authority of Jesus Christ. We do so without any fear or reservation because we also believe that Jesus is the epitome of the "enlightened despot," the Lord who truly has our personal and individual best interests at heart and who is in very truth actively engaged in and able to bring those interests about to the uttermost.
This, speaking now for me personally, results in the absolutely uttermost Liberty in my personal life - personal freedom to choose and do any good thing my heart desires.
Consequently, atheists, humanists, whoever - have nothing to fear from an authentic Christian, and some of the reactionary comments I find below my article here seem to me to be quite "over the top" for that reason.
"Namely, if you truly believe in self-ownership, you also must acknowledge the sovereign right of any self-owning individual to submit themselves willingly to another authority."
Now I couldn't agree more.
Love and understanding is no longer a two way street, more like an intersection.
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-15 15:26:40
"Consequently, atheists, humanists, whoever - have nothing to fear from an authentic Christian, and some of the reactionary comments I find below my article here seem to me to be quite "over the top" for that reason"...
Ummm... there is a very basic flaw in this statement, and that is, namely, that Christian delusion has grown to a point where it is nearly the ESSENTIAL voting prerequisite to achieve notable power in America. Without at least admitting to the delusion, you cannot hold the highest office in America.
What that means is that the highest office in the land MUST be filled by an irrational, illogical, and deluded individual who makes decisions based on "hoping it to be true" rather than facts and evidence.
It is this lack of basic rationality that produces the "fear of Christians" you don't understand.
At every point in history, it has been the credulity of the masses that produced these tidal waves of evil and massively scaled bloodshed.
Getting a populace to stop believing in nonsense and to start believeing in evidence and logic and their own minds is the only surefire way to avoid mass stupidity and violent consequences...
And that means to stop perpetuating delusion and stop lying to children and deluding them.
"Christian delusion has grown to a point where it is nearly the ESSENTIAL voting prerequisite to achieve notable power in America. What that means is that the highest office in the land MUST be filled by an irrational, illogical, and deluded individual who makes decisions based on "hoping it to be true" rather than facts and evidence."
So THAT'S why they seem so intent on keeping Ron Paul out of office! His problem is that he's an authentic Christian.
Again Scott you label all christians as doing such things, when I have already pointed out to you that is not the case.
You are stuck in duality, and there is not much point in debating someone with such a worldview. Your constant use of labels to group people into false accusations is just plain blind. You have a collectivism attitude towards humans, the same kind of thinking racists and those same very christians you blame have. Quit looking at the world in black and white, and taste a bit of truth for a change.
And may I ask, who are you to tell me that I am deliusional? Who are you to tell me that you are the expert on these things? Because YOU personally do not see, that means that all others must be blind as well? That they are seeing things and are dillusional because their perspective is not the same as yours?
Where is your higher intelligence? I fail to see it. I instead see a man who is on the other side of the same coin as those you blame.
As you seem to expect me to believe that everything happened random. That there is no greater intelligence to the universe. That there is no purpose to life, no lesson to be learned and this is it. And I am the one who is dillusional?
Do you even see what you are doing? You generated an overview thought of christians, and then you apply that to everyone, and use only YOUR constructed view of them to condem them. That is not intelligence, that is the dillusion.
Ok hold on, is Scott wrong? Maybe there is something in Scott's life that would lead him to believe that Christians will perscute him(?) or someone he knows. Is this a wrong analogy, or totally irrational? In today's atmosphere, climate of people I would say he is off-track, but history of religion and their persecution of non-believers or believers of other faiths I would say he is right on. To Scott, well, it is a given that you are in the minority, as most people believe in some type of religion, therefor you will see people with religious backgrounds running for office, not exclusively because of it. In our climate of tolerance, I doubt that you will see an inquisition sprout up anytime soon.
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-15 16:06:56
"And may I ask, who are you to tell me that I am deliusional? "
Ummm, do you believe things are true when there is zero evidence that they are true? More importantly, do you believe you "know" what god is, or what his instructions are? If you do, you are, by definition, delusional.
You cannot know what created the universe, and you most certainly cannot know what that imagined (or real) creator requires of you.
If you think you can, you are deluded.
Again, anyone have evidence there is a god, bring it out.
Remember, there is ample evidence that "prayer" to a god is statistically as ineffective as non prayer.
There is ample evidence that all three sand religious books are full of falsities and worse, evil statements and perverse notions (Kill those who work on the sabbath? I mean, who listens to that crap anymore?)
There is no evidence that some devine being interferes with anything here on earth, and there is no evidence that there is anything "out there" that is capable of doing the things Christians and Jews and Mormons and Muslims say it is capable of doing.
In short, if you believe in things that cannot be true, you are delusional. If you believe in things in the face of all contrary evidence, you are delusional. If you believe in supernatural things that break all known physical laws without producing evidence to support them, you are delusional.
"Saying, "I believe" does not a truth or a reality maketh..."
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-15 16:45:25
It is truly sad just how many people are completely void of any true knowledge of the Bible. As of yet, not one historical event written in the Bible has ever been conclusively disproved. On the other hand, hundreds of others have been proven through historical writings and archaeology.
I agree that most of the "Christian" leaders are corrupt and leading their flocks astray...
"WOE be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!" - Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
The Old Testament, which is remarkably misunderstood, is an historical account of the forces of good verses evil based on opposing bloodlines that begin in humanity with Cain and Abel, and then between Cain and Seth all the way through to the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Many who read the Bible, do so without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, thus understanding nothing, other than those either secretly, or openly, opposed to the Lord Jesus Christ and God Almighty...
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth; but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." - I Corinthians 2:10-16
The original writer of this article (creator), in my humble opinion, was simply pointing out the philosophy of Both the Lord Jesus Christ and Dr. Ron Paul, concerning the bondage that taxation by government enforces upon the population.
Not one cent of our federal tax dollars go to anything other than repaying the debt created by the private Federal Reserve printing a fiat (worthless) currency.
I would highly suggest that people watch Aaron Russo's America: Freedom to Fascism concerning this issue.
In closing, I would also suggest to those blinded and uneducated individuals who prefer to spew out opinions rather than fact, to begin to open your eyes and actually do some legitimate research to verify your claims.
Meanwhile, as our once great country is being systematically dismantled, along with any morality that once was the central fiber of our society, far too many are hiding behind their words claiming to know the secrets of life. To all of you...
"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." - Romans 1:25
...I pray for you all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ - not in symbols or graven images!
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-15 19:02:12
"On the other hand, hundreds of others have been proven through historical writings and archaeology".
Ummmm... I would love to see these "hundreds" of others' proofs.
Show me evidence of a virgin birth.
Show me evidence of a dead man coming back to life after three days.
Show me evidence that a tablet existed with "ten commandments" written on them.
Show me evidence that a "tree of knowledge" existed.
And so on and so forth...
Heresay is NOT evidence. Stories are stories. I can write better stories than the bible tells, and yet I KNOW they are fiction.
The bible, like the Quran and the Book Of Mormons are fictional books full of gruesome and horrific tales that should never be used to promote or support anything.
Scott, as I said earlier, you know little or nothing about the Bible and would not look at the evidence if it was presented to you. Whether teleological or otherwise.
You have no answer for a first cause, but just rely on an abiogenesis premise and an organic evolutionary theory of progress through survival of the fittest, natural selection, and mutations adding genetic material.
Enlighten us. In the human circulatory system the arterial is clear bore and elastic whereas the venous is non-elastic and contains one way valves to assure that the blood returns only to the heart. How did natural selection account for this?
Not to mention similar indications of design, bi-sexual vs asexual development, etc.
You continually criticize the Bible, yet it declares that the Christian was created unto good works which God had afore ordained that we should walk in them. And, because of what He did in redeeming me I engage in those good works being sure that He gets the glory. I am sure you find that equally reprehensible, but the children I help appreciate it.
In a previous exchange you alluded to a superior (in your opinion) concensus of morality. I pointed out that a woman in England had just decided to abort her baby because it was immoral (her words) to bring a life into this world and increase the carbon footprint. My point is that a concensus morality is a morality in flux and can lead to any conclusion. If we follow her lead we should all commit suicide.
And, why would your morality be any better than hers?
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-15 20:58:50
Did you mean heresy or hearsay Scott? Either way, your opinion is just that, your opinion. It must be a lonely existence for anyone believing in nothing more than their own ego and self-worth, adhering only to the will of man and Gaia.
As far as proof, there are 1323 pages of Scripture in the KJV Bible that span thousands of years, describing prophecy after prophecy that have come to fruition.
I have no doubt that you can write fictional stories. Whether or not they would be of the literary quality of the non-fictional Bible and stand the test of time, is both debatable and highly unlikely.
As far as your interpretation of the Bible, it's just that...
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." - II Peter 1:20 KJV
As far as the authenticity of the Bible as opposed to other religious writings, ie the Quran or Book of Mormon written by men seeking power, there is a monumental difference...
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." - II Peter 1:21 KJV
As the Lord Jesus Christ stated...
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." - Matthew 15:9 KJV
Scott, your opinion is your own. But remember this...
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." - Romans 14:11 KJV
As a former Marine, Patriot, Pastor and Constitutionalist, I would never think of taking yours, or anyone else's First Amendment right to freedom of speech away. However, that is exactly what the minions in the UN, Club of Rome, CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group, Illuminati, Masonic Orders, Skull and Bones, and our own government who all prescribe to your same views, are doing.
If you think these people in positions of power are Christians, you need to wake up to reality. Environmentalism was created by the Nazi's as a front for eugenics (depopulation), and the confiscation of lands and resources. That is what this hoax called man made global warming is all about.
You put your trust in man. I'll put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and God Almighty. Either way, I'll continue to pray for you. Peace and God bless in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-15 22:00:13
Just one other thing Scott, since it's obvious that your understanding of the Bible is not being guided by the Holy Spirit, I suggest you Google -
United Nations, Nazism, Environmentalism, Trans-Humanism, CFR, Illuminati, Masonic Orders, Lucis Trust, Alice Bailey, Prescott Bush, Darwin, Huxley, Kissinger, Rockefeller, Maurice Strong, Gorbachev, Al Gore,
then add Occult to your search with one or any combination of those groups, terms, and names. That should be enough to get you started.
You will find that contrary to their claims (and yours), the elite in power, and most of our past presidents, including George W Bush, are NOT Christians. Also, McCain, Clinton, and Obama are all members of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).
Whether you will ever believe in the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ or God, is completely up to you to ask the Holy Spirit to lift the darkness from your eyes and guide you into His truth.
Whether or not you believe in the occult, as the elite of this world do, is completely irrelevant because the power elite most certainly do. Do some research Scott before you form opinions about things you obviously know little about.
This is a spiritual war we are fighting right here, right now, on this earth God created.
"Religion ends and philosophy begins, just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends, and astronomy begins. "- Christopher Hitchens
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."-Christopher Hitchens
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it's the surrender of reason, it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It's our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated."-Christopher Hitchens
"
"For centuries, the battle of morality was fought between those who claimed that your life belongs to God and those who claimed that it belongs to your neighbors - between those who preached that the good is self-sacrifice for the sake of ghosts in heaven and those who preached that the good is self-sacrifice for the sake of incompetents on earth. And no one came to say that your life belongs to you and that the good is to live it. " -Ayn Rand
"
"The good, say the mystics of spirit, is God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive- a definition that invalidates man's consciousness and nullifies his concepts of existence. Man's mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God. Man's standard of value, say the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man's power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith. The purpose of man's life.is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question. "-Ayn Rand
"And now I see the face of god, and I raise this god over the earth, this god whom men have sought since men came into being, this god who will grant them joy and peace and pride. This god, this one word: 'I.' "-Ayn Rand
"Do you believe in God, Andrei? No. Neither do I. But that's a favorite question of mine. An upside-down question, you know. What do you mean? Well, if I asked people whether they believed in life, they'd never understand what I meant. It's a bad question. It can mean so much that it really means nothing. So I ask them if they believe in God. And if they say they do -- then, I know they don't believe in life. Why? Because, you see, God -- whatever anyone chooses to call God -- is one's highest conception of the highest possible. And whoever places his highest conception above his own possibility thinks very little of himself and his life. It's a rare gift, you know, to feel reverence for your own life and to want the best, the greatest, the highest possible, here, now, for your very own"-Ayn Rand
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-16 16:22:29
These are the people you have established your system of belief on Lloyd? Again, as I suggested to Scott, maybe you should do a bit of legitimate research as to who these people really are that you have chosen to quote.
"Anton LaVey established Satanism's first and largest religious organization, the Church of Satan, in 1966, and codified Satanic beliefs and practices in the Satanic Bible in 1969. According to the Church of Satan, there are many Satanists around the world, including both members and non-members. It rejects the legitimacy of any other organizations of Satanists, dubbing them reverse-Christians and pseudo-Satanists. Although exact numbers have never been released, it has been estimated by the church that the number of adherents is in the tens of thousands." - Wikipedia
Are these and others like them, the people you want dictating policy or shaping the youth of our disintegrating society while creating a New World Order with a One World Religion, as our Constitutional rights are being destroyed? You have been deceived...
"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." - II Corinthians 11:14 KJV
Posted By: Penni (and John ) Bulten
Date: 2008-04-18 11:48:31
Jesus paid the temple tax to be circumspect (it basically was a tax on preaching-you could say free speech) but then, that was a tax by his countrymen. The Constitution strongly forbids capitation (head) taxes that are not apportioned by the states, for the moral reasons clearly stated by Ron Paul.The whole issue really does revolve around 'who owns you' and ,in my opinion, makes a strong moral argument for not paying a tax on work for pay. (not to mention the death or estate taxes) On the whole, I thought the article was well-written, logical and succinct. I greatly enjoyed reading it.
Thanks for your kind remarks. Encouragement always welcome here! :)
Curiosity is also most welcome here; I have read much by and about Joe Bannister for many years, and his is a good name for readers of this column to search on.
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-18 15:36:09
Joe Bannister is interviewed in America: Freedom to Fascism by the late Aaron Russo. The documentary is on Google Video and is a must see for all patriots of our Republic.
The "income tax" was never properly ratified. Also, according to the Constitution, any tax must be apportioned (shared). The income tax is not only immoral and a slave tax, it is, and always has been, implied and completely illegal.
I think anyone with knowledge of the Bible will remember when the Lord Jesus Christ went ballistic in the Temple because of the "moneychangers."
I am interested in learning more about your ministry and background, if you would be kind enough to contact me "offline" via the "indirect" creator link at the bottom of my article?
It has not been proven that God created life. It has also not been proven that life arose "spontaneously". Unless you have a link going to a highly reputable scientific journal that proves otherwise?
I am certainly not going to throw quotes at you from a book you have zero belief in. That is the height of ignorant, willful stupidity, and those of you doing so should be ashamed to consider yourself reasonable, much less intelligent. If I started quoting the Q'aran at you will it make you into a Muslim or convince you the Bible is wrong? THen why do it do Scott?
I think everyone has the freedom to make up their own mind, Scott. What I have a VERY LARGE PROBLEM with is athiests who think that Christians have no rights to express their own beliefs. Before you say a single word, consider the stance of Dawkins, who has said repeatedly that nothing Christians believe is positive or even good and that that anyone who believes in God should be unable to express such beliefs.
Please, kindly explain how a group of people who make up less than 5% of the American voting public should be allowed to tell 90% of the REST of the ENTIRE COUNTRY (or the world) that they are insane, delusional, and unfit to have any say in anything?
Oh, right.....that's what you're trying to pull with your getting Ron Paul elected, stupid me...
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-18 18:12:02
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." [emphasis mine] - Article I Bill Of Rights
I may not agree with what Scott says, but as I alluded to in an earlier comment, we all have freedom of speech. When that is gone, our freedom is gone.
On to another issue - What did the Lord Jesus Christ do when he ministered to the unbelieving dregs of society or to the Pharisees? What did Paul do when he ministered to the Gentiles, or Peter to the Jews? They taught the Scriptures to the unbelieving. One of the responsibilities as a Christian is to educate others concerning the Bible and the salvation they receive in their faith by grace in Lord Jesus Christ.
With that said, am I "ashamed" of testifying to the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ? Am I "ignorant" or exemplifying "willful stupidity"? Should I consider myself not "reasonable" or "less intelligent"? Ask the Lord Jesus Christ those questions! What do you think He would say?
Concerning Dr. Ron Paul for President - Who is better, and please tell me why?
Posted By: Scott from Oregon
Date: 2008-04-19 13:09:09
"Please, kindly explain how a group of people who make up less than 5% of the American voting public should be allowed to tell 90% of the REST of the ENTIRE COUNTRY (or the world) that they are insane, delusional, and unfit to have any say in anything?"
Actually, the number is probably closer to 75%, if you consider Europe (which is predominantly agnostic/athiestic these days, Japan, China, and the indigenous religions that are more closely aligned with crop-god worship and other beliefs more concerned with getting food on the table than having fictitious souls saved by evil, vindictive gods... In the US it is about 15% who believe in no god, and much higher who don't believe in the god of the bible but say they believe in "something".
Having a country be grossly deluded is not a good thing. We see it in the actions of Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and now, unfortunately, here in America. When nutjobbers like Ted Haggart and Jerry Falwell can snake millions of dollars away from a credulous populace, you KNOW the population has lost its mind. I'll say it again to make sure you understood me the first time. The bible is a sick and demented book full of evil teachings that has simply no place informing us of our values.
You can make excuses for all of the evil and vile things it contains, but you cannot deny that they are there. It does nothing to enhance the undertanding of "truth" and life, and teaches humans it is preferable to be mindless and incurious in regards to large and significant questions like "purpose" and "meaning". Granting a book full of vile stories of sacrifice and death, rape, murder, genocide, scapegoating, the keeping of slaves and the taking of virgins for personal use after waylaying a township is grotesque, (not to mention that it advocates lying to children to perpetuate itself as a belief...) Disgusting.
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-19 15:01:31
Scott,
You seem to be a well educated young man, but your hatred and acceptance of others is a blindness and a contradiction that is extremely transparent. It completely sabotages your abhorrance for the true Christians versus the false teachers claiming to be Christians who deceptively adhere to your train of thought closer than you think.
On another note, the actual number of Christians in the world is probably closer to 25 - 30% when it's all said and done. But does it really matter? The bottom line is that there can only be one truth.
Now, I am all for freedom af speech, as I have clearly stated on at least two occasions. Your insults are duly noted. Your knowledge of the Bible, or lack thereof rather, is also duly noted.
All I can say at this point, is God bless you man. Go in peace, and I truly hope you discover that one Truth in this life that dwells in the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Posted By: Francis Mortyn
Date: 2008-04-21 09:24:58
This is interesting:
Posted By: creator Date: 2008-04-15 14:37:28
Self-ownership is an excellent concept, and honest humanists ought to recognize the implications:
Namely, if you truly believe in self-ownership, you also must acknowledge the sovereign right of any self-owning individual to submit themselves willingly to another authority.
So this Creator dude acknowledges the Humanist virtue of self-ownership, and then attempts to discredit the Humanists case by assigning to them a position which they do not hold, in other words he uses the "straw man" fallacy to evade honest argument.
No Humanist has ever denied the right of any individual to enter voluntary slavery, or voluntary self-debasement, voluntary self-mutilation, or perhaps even voluntary self-destruction.
One should, however, resist to the utmost the attempts of Christians and Muslims who try to foce others to accept their views. (Jews have class enough to refrain from it.) Their claim that "every knee shall bow" is abhorrent to any lover of liberty. As for me and my house, there shall be no bowing to any authority whatsoever, human or divine. I will live and die a free man.
The America I love to my core is America not under anything. It's Christians, not Humanists, who perverted the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 by declaring us One Nation Under "God" - THEIR god, of course. Well, my America is not under anything, sorry about yours.
Self-ownership is a core concept for the Humanist. What does Christianity teach? Well, here's infallible Holy Scripture, every word of which is inspired and valuable for your correction and instruction:
You are not your own; ye are bought with a price.
Hmm. That doesn't sound like advocacy of self-ownership. Let's study the Holy Revealed Word of God some more:
He came unto HIS OWN and HIS OWN received him not. [John 1:11]
Present your bodies aliving sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God. [Rom. 12:1]
Compare George Bernard Shaw:
"Self-sacrifice enables us to sacrifice other people without blushing."
but it's a Humanist thinker who offers us an outlook which is a lot like what Ayn Rand, libertarians and other advocates of liberty and capitalism would endorse in our own time, and I predict Ron Paul is among them:
"The primary and sole foundation of virtue and of the proper conduct of life is to seek our own profit." [Spinoza, Ethics 4:20]
Fundies have ther William Jennings Bryan, great spokesman for biblical creationism and denier of scientific biology. When asked to name his favorite Christian hymn, here's what he chose - and really, folks, it is not exactly a hymn of self-ownership, is it?
I'll go where you want me to go, dear lord,
Over mountain and plain and sea.
I'll say what you want me to say, dear Lord,
I'll be what you want me to be.
No thanks, fundies. I do not and shall not bow to your god. My beloved America is not under your god. I am a man without a master. Slaves have masters. Serfs have a Lord. I do not. If you like you can say your citizenship is in Heaven. Say it all you want. Just don't try to tell me mine is.
My poem is not one of your songs of self-subjugation like William Jennings Bryan's nauseating hymn. I prefer the words of a man who honors humanness, autonomy: Percy Bysshe Shelley.
The loathsome mask has fallen.
Man remains,
Sceptreless, free, uncircumscribed, but man
Equal, unclassed, tribeless, and nationless,
Exempt from awe, worship, degree,
The king
Over himself. Just, gentle, wise,
but man -
Passionless? No, yet free from guilt ...
That, sir, and not the bowing and groveling self-hatred of Christianity is the utterance of a free man.
Americans, not homeless wanderers telling tales around the campfire in Bronze Age Middle Eastern deserts, articulate our ethics and define this secular Republic. Fundies who want a religious state should go live in beautiful downtown Kabul or Tehran.
This is AMERICA. Don't try to hijack it in the name of YOUR Lord and YOUR Master. Cold dead hands, dudes.
Posted By: Francis Mortyn
Date: 2008-04-21 10:35:22
Posted By: DX10 Date: 2008-04-16 12:20:41
Hmmm, we are into quoting humanists. Here are a few from one of the greatest of them all.
Regarding life, the wisest men of all ages have judged alike: it is worthless. Friedrich Nietzsche
There cannot be a God because if there were one, I could not believe that I was not He. Friedrich Nietzsche
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. Friedrich Nietzsche
Simple rebellion.
................................
Funny but I don't recall Nietzsche ever saying he was a Humanist.
However, since we are in the mood to look at quotations, let's hear the voices of some eminent CHRISTIANS:
"When our German nation became a nation, God gave it for a soul the Christian faith. And from this Christianity of the German national soul have come all the forces that make our nation develop greatness."
That was Pastor Martin Niemoller, responding to the accession to power as Chancellor of Adolf Hitler.
Niemoller's sermon was delivered on the First Sunday in Lent, 1933, and circulated to be read in pulpits. He was already rising as a Protestant leader as Hitler was rising as a leader in government. Niemoller was eventually elected head of world Protestantism.
"... damned Jews ... the Devil's children damned to Hell ... circumcised holy ones ... like the Devil, their god, full of lies ... prickly and poisonous as snakes ... miserable, screaming Jews ... knaves and lying mouths ... full of all kinds of meanness and loutishness ... poisonous mean worms ... the Devil riots within them ... Jew dogs."
That is the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther. No surprise that he was a hero to the Nazis.
At the Nuremberg Rallies the Nazis exhibited first editions of Luther's Vom Schem Hamphoras, proud of his clear Christian voice.
Then there's that baptized Christian Adolf Hitler himself, who addressed the Reichstag in 1938 saying:
"I believe today that I am doing the will of the almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am struggling to do the Lord's work."
Hitler also said:
"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"
Face it, fundies. When you get to Heaven you will be spending eternity with those guys - Niemoller, Hitler etc.
I will prefer to be in Hell with good people like Humanist Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Humanist Gene Roddenberry, Humanist Carl Sagan, Socrates, Albert Schweitzer, Humanist Isaac Asimov, and so many others. The climate may be a bit hot there but the company will be way better.
Posted By: Pastor Hibbsey
Date: 2008-04-21 12:18:29
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." - Matthew 24:11 KJV
The Christian faith, as well as governments, have long been infiltrated by so-called Christians. The true Christian Church is the Body of Christ...
"Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church.
"Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." - Ephesians 1:21-23 KJV
Posted By: Francis Mortyn Date: 2008-04-21 10:35:22
"Hitler also said:"
"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"
Which God?
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." - James 1:19 KJV
Posted By: Francis Mortyn Date: 2008-04-21 10:35:22
"I will prefer to be in Hell..."
That is not the final destination for those who deny the Lord Jesus Christ..
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." - Revelation 20:14
The Lord Jesus Christ and God Almighty give us free choice in our lives. Does man afford that same opportunity for mankind?
