Topic: Iraq
My Father's Vietnam is My Iraq - Disturbing Parallels Maybe 9/11 didn't REALLY "Change Everything." An Analogy between the Vietnam and Iraq Wars, topped off by a John McCain exposeby Jake Towne, the Champion of the Constitution
(libertarian)
Friday, May 2, 2008
Dare to believe that maybe 9/11 did not really "Change Everything" and perhaps we have done this all before. My premise is that there are eerily strange parallels between the Vietnam and Iraq Wars. This article is in 3 parts, a brief outline followed by its elaboration, then a digression on McCain in Vietnam.
"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it’s realized that our liberties and our wealth are in jeopardy." – Dr. Ron Paul.
"Injustice Anywhere is a Threat to Justice Everywhere." – Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
1) Communism:Terrorism. A Great Fear is used to Unify and Scare the American Public and Initiate the Wars. In Vietnam, Fighting on Asian Soil Prevents Communism from Reaching America (the Domino Theory). In Iraq, Fighting on Middle Eastern Soil Prevents Terrorism from Reaching America (more 9/11’s).
2) Gulf of Tonkin:WMD and Iraqi Support of Al-Qaeda. Lying was used to Initiate the Wars and Unify the American Public. In Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, revealed as a false flag attack in 2005, made it seem as if North Vietnam was the Aggressor instead of the USA. In Iraq, the Bush Administration’s false claims of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and Al-Qaeda/Terrorist presence in Iraq were used to justify the Preemptive War by the USA.
3) Viet Cong : the "Insurgency". The Single Enemy is another Lie. The American Public is Misled to Believe We are Fighting a Single Entity. In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong were separate entities, but most Americans thought we were just fighting the Viet Cong guerillas in the jungle. For the starting years of the Iraq war, the Media classified the Iraqi resistance as "Insurgents" or the "Insurgency," while in reality it is a war between multiple Sunni and Shia factions with or against the Americans, with dashes of other groups added for good measure.
4) The Diem Assassination : The Hanging of Saddam Hussein. Political Killings of Our Evil Ex-Ally Spreads Total Chaos
5) Secret Bombings of Nation States completely WITHOUT Declaration of War or even Approval by Congress. In Vietnam, Nixon executed the Secret Bombing of neutral Cambodia during Operation Menu in 1969. In Iraq, Bush and Britain’s Secret Bombing of Iraq occurred in mid-2002, well BEFORE Congress gave a rubber stamp to Bush to launch the invasion on October 11th.
6) "We Must Stay the Course. Leaving Is a Huge Mistake." Vietnam: Presidents Johnson and Nixon. General William Westmoreland. Iraq: President Bush. General Petraeus/Powell.
7) Initially, the First Instinct of the US President was Refusal to Attack. (surprised?)
8) America Commits War Crimes Against Humanity. The My Lai Massacre. Abu Ghraib. Gitmo.
9) Use of Real "WMD" Against Civilians. Biochemical or Radiation Warfare. Agent Orange. Depleted Uranium.
10) The Legacy of Colin Powell Will Be to Have Lied in Both Wars
11) Lastly, Murder of American Students by the National Guard in America. Kent State. Jackson State. And where next?
1) Communism:Terrorism. A Great Fear is used to Unify and Scare the American Public and Initiate the Wars.
In Vietnam, Fighting on Asian Soil Prevents Communism from Reaching America (the Domino Theory). Defense Secretary McNamara’s Argument Without End states that the Eisenhower administration first popularized the Domino Theory, where Southeast Asia would fall, then Hawaii, and then the Western United States.
In Iraq, Fighting on Middle Eastern Soil Prevents Terrorism from Reaching America (more 9/11’s). Although it makes no logical sense that a conventional war in Asia would fully prevent terrorist operatives covertly executing more 9/11-type plots in America, Bush, his administration, and the Media publicly state this as a prime benefit of the Iraq War – in Bush’s exact words "It’s better to fight them there than here."
2) Gulf of Tonkin:WMD and Iraqi Support of Al-Qaeda. Lying was used to Initiate the Wars and Unify the American Public.
In Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, revealed as a false flag attack in 2005, made it seem as if North Vietnam was the Aggressor instead of the USA. The alleged attack by North Vietnamese torpedo boats against the USS Maddox started America on the slippery slope to War by granting President Johnson the power to conduct military operations without a formal declaration of war. However in 2005, the attack was at long last declared false by Secretary of Defense McNamara, in his own words "It didn’t happen." The Gulf of Tonkin is eerily similar to the alleged Iranian speedboat attack on an American destroyer in January 2008, which was apparently a few unarmed Iranian border patrolmen wearing lifejackets in itty-bitty motorboats versus not one, but several American destroyers doing their job of defending our national security in international waters of the Persian Gulf.
In Iraq, the Bush Administration’s false claims of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and Al-Qaeda/Terrorist presence in Iraq were used to justify the Preemptive War by the USA. In fact, CNN counted 935 lies by the Bush Administration tying these all together. Bush himself had 232 WMD comments and 28 "Iraq linked to al-Qaeda" comments.
3) Viet Cong : the "Insurgency". The Single Enemy is another Lie. The American Public is Misled to Believe We are Fighting a Single Entity
In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong were separate entities, but most Americans thought we were just fighting the Viet Cong guerillas in the jungle. The stereotype was a savage in pajama with no shoes wearing a funny straw hat hiding in the jungle with an assault rifle. However, we also fought the Viet Minh, a uniformed "formal" army strongly supported by other Communist regimes.
For the starting years of the Iraq war, the Media classified the Iraqi resistance as "Insurgents" or the "Insurgency," while in reality it is a war between multiple Sunni and Shia factions with or against the Americans, with dashes of other groups added for good measure.The mist on this has lifted due to the eruption of violence after the "Surge" but if the common American can remember back, for the starting years of the Iraq war the Media pigeonholed the Iraqi resistance as "Insurgents" or the "Insurgency." The stereotype here is an Arab-Muslim-type-person in loose robes wearing a suicide vest and holding an AK-47, pausing 10 times a day from his job of constructing IEDs and trying to kill Americans at security checkpoints for the daily prayers to Mecca. In reality this is a war of occupation. Americans have sided with several factions against other factions, driving the Iraqis apart so we can conquer Iraq at long last. Multiple groups like the Sunni Arab, Shia Arab, Kurd, Americans and other factions are all fighting each other, with figurehead personalities such as Petraeus, Al Sadr and Al Maliki in command.
4) The Diem Assassination : The Hanging of Saddam Hussein. Political Killings of Our Evil Ex-Ally Spreads Total Chaos
In Vietnam, take a look at the CIA Sponsorship and then subsequent Assassination of South Vietnamese Prime Minister Diem. CIA/USAF Colonel Edward Lansdale was the visible arm of the US government, offering advice to Diem in the 1955 election, including revising down his fraudulent 98.2% victory over Emperor Bao Dai down to 60-70% to make the win more plausible. Diem then proclaimed the "Republic of Vietnam" which turned out to be a police state, although the USA hailed Diem as the "hero of the free world" and the "Winston Churchill of Asia." In power, Diem, a Catholic aristocrat, suppressed multiple religious groups, including a Buddhist sect the rest of the country respected. Diem coined the termed Viet Cong to scapegoat and shame the Communist supporters and stifled their dissent with imprisonment, torture, and executions. At the end, Diem refused to follow CIA orders, and on November 2, 1963, Diem and his brother were executed by CIA-backed generals. President Kennedy, when informed of the coup, "rushed from the room with a look of shock and dismay on his face." Kennedy increased the US military advisors from 800 to 16,300 and was himself assassinated on November 22, 1963, strangely only several weeks after Diem. When President Johnson took over, he was mostly concerned with spending money for his "Great Society," and it actually took more than a year before American troops were sent en masse, but that the assassination caused inherent instability in the South Vietnamese government is not an overstatement.
Now compare to the CIA Sponsorship of Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, followed by his post-invasion Execution. The US backed Hussein in 1980, supplying the regime with conventional and biological weapons. (What we GAVE them WMD? See also the Rumsfeld-Hussein handshake picture.) Hussein then invaded Iran, retaliating for us against the Khomeini theocracy’s coup of the US-backed Shah’s police state. During the Iran-Contra affair, we secretly supplied Iran with arms to maximize the bloodshed and chaos in the region. Fast forwarding past Gulf War I and economic sanctions that resulted in the deaths of many, plus Hussein’s own well-publicized police state and suppression of his own countrymen, in 2003 an American blitzkrieg deposed Hussein. After conviction for crimes against humanity, Hussein was hanged on one of Islam’s holiest days, the Eid ul-Adha at the aptly named Camp Justice. His ski-mask-clad executioners killed him mid-prayer, allegedly while taunting him. After his death, there was massive rioting and the Iraqi Civil War accelerated up to and including the present-day. While I have a tendency to bemoan the 4,560 American troops who have died to-date in Iraq and Afghanistan, a far greater crime is the living conditions and death of the Iraqi people. Try imagining a day in their shoes.
5) Secret Bombings of Nation States completely WITHOUT Declaration of War or even Approval by Congress.
In Vietnam, Nixon executed the Secret Bombing of neutral Cambodia – who adamantly did NOT anything to do with the war - during Operation Menu in 1969. Attacks Breakfast, Lunch, Snack, Dinner, and Dessert (I am not Dave Barry but I am not making this up) dropped approximately 2,750,000 TONS of bombs on Cambodia over 14 months. Wikipedia reports this was more ordnance than the Allies used while bombing WWII Europe. Although this targeted the Ho Chi Minh Trail, an estimated 700.000 Khmer civilians were ‘collateral damage.’
The American public had no idea this occurred until 4 years after the bombings began. USAF Major Hal Knight coordinated the attacks and burned the evidence after every attack. His orders came directly, signed and sealed from Admiral John Sidney McCain, Jr., who was CINCPAC (Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command), and only a few handfuls of people had any knowledge this was occurring. Next time you hear John McCain talk about honor, ask him if his father had any. Apparently violating the Constitution is a hereditary trait (I refer to McCain’s singing of Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran last year on the campaign trial, another neutral state). I was so agitated by this I added a footnote dedictated to McCain below.
After questioning the legality of his actions, Major Knight was discharged from the Air Force, but fortunately decided to contact his representative in Congress, and public hearings went on in the country about the same time as Watergate. According to Air Force historian Captain Earl H. Tilford, "Deception to fool the enemy was one thing, but lying to Congress and key members of the government, including the chief of staff of the Air Force and the secretary of the Air Force, was something else." That is McCain’s father’s legacy - who by the way apparently was a fairly lousy submarine captain in WWII.
These illegal bombings led to the coup and removal of Cambodia’s King Sihanouk by a general named Lon Nol. The US voiced its approval but the support was all shadows, as the inept general was defeated by those agrarian Year Zero psychos, the Khmer Rouge. The Cambodian people started with a population of around 8 million, but would lose about 700,000 civilians to US bombings, 500,000 during the Lon Nol-Khmer Rouge civil war, and over 1,000,000 under the Khmer Rouge, land mines maiming a physically noticeable part of the population. This legacy survives even today to the eyes of any tourist wandering the country. I’ve traveled to Cambodia and any tourist visiting this country can still see at first hand the scars of war. Massive deforestation to remove cover for the military make much of the landscape barren, and beggars with their limbs blown off from mines are sadly abundant. Tuol Sleng prison and the Killing Fields near Phnom Penh were more chilling for me to see than a Nazi concentration camp. (Sorry this isn’t very pro-Cambodia tourism, but the counterpoint is the Khmer people are lovely and the Angkor Wat complex remains the most awe-inspiring man-made structures I have ever laid my eyes on. Just stay on the beaten path to avoid any land mines that may have been missed cleaning up.) Here in Cambodia, America didn’t come back to "spread democracy."
In Iraq, Bush and Britain’s Secret Bombing of Iraq occurred in mid-2002, well BEFORE Congress gave a rubber stamp to Bush to launch the invasion on October 11th. Using the pretext of the No-Fly zones to protect ethnic cleansing of Kurds in the north and Shiite in the south, America and Britain pounded away at Iraqi military installations as evidenced by the British MoD ordnance spikes and a massive 100-plane raid in September. The Pentagon confirmed 78 combat strikes were executed in 2002. Attacking these military installations was NOT part of the UN agreement (even the legality of that is challenged) this was just simply an illegal war crime.
On the eve of the official invasion, on March 8, 2003, Bush said in his national radio address: "We are doing everything we can to avoid war in Iraq. But if Saddam Hussein does not disarm peacefully, he will be disarmed by force." This is an impeachable offense granted all the attacks the year prior that Bush was aware of, even if the American public was not. It is also an impeachable offense to start a war without consulting Congress, although the Constitution requires a straight declaration of war – maybe I am splitting hairs by requiring Declaration of War, but War is a good deal more serious than say, declaring Rosa Park Day. The next neutral nation America will attack is Iran, use the article link below to check out my thoughts as to what’s going on there.
6) "We Must Stay the Course. Leaving Is a Huge Mistake."
Vietnam: Presidents Johnson and Nixon. General William Westmoreland.
Iraq: President Bush. General Petraeus/Powell.
"Staying the Course" is a Public Relations Ploy by Fools (or are they really?) on a Proverbial Titanic. Please see the video for presidential footage. Westmoreland advocated the three point plan to take the offensive in Vietnam, similar to Powell’s war plans for Iraq. Westmoreland advocated staying the course, just like Petraeus the Political - his YouTube tapings in April 2008 are blatant reruns of the pre-Surge September 2007 hearings.
(An aside – If you want to see Petraeus exposed as a witless political stooge who blatantly forsook his oath to the Constitution of the United States, watch the YouTube link below.)
7) Initially, the First Instinct of the US President was Refusal to Attack.
In Vietnam, while America still only provided military advisors, JFK had a private conversation with Nobel Peace Prize winner and Canadian Prime Minister Lester Pearson to seek his advice. Pearson reported he told Kennedy "Get out." Kennedy replied, "That’s a stupid answer. Everyone knows that. The question is: How do we get out?"
In Iraq, the 9/11 Commission reported that Bush rejected Wolfowitz’s plans to war against Iraq immediately after the NYC Trade Center attack. Bush testified to the 9/11 Commission that immediately after 9/11 he speculated that Iraq (and Iran!) may have helped had a role in the attack. Brilliant King George reasoned 1) Iraq had been an enemy of the US for 11 years, and was the only place in the world where the US was engaged in ongoing combat operations (the bombings #5 above), 2) "As a former pilot, the President was struck by the apparent sophistication of the operation and some of the piloting, especially Hanjour’s high-speed dive into the Pentagon." and the weakest line of reasoning 3) Iraqi supported Palestinian suicide terrorists in the past, we got attacked by suicide terrorists, therefore it was Iraq.
On Sept. 15, 2001, Bush decided not to invade Iraq, but instead to invade Afghanistan. However, Condi Rice testified Bush still wanted invasion plans for Iraq prepared at this time. Wolfowitz "argued that if was even a 10 percent chance Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attack" we should invade Iraq. On Sept. 17 Bush ordered the Department of Defense to make attack plans for Iraq. How nice of Bush to get Congressional approval to do this! (I'm joking)
Lastly, the Sept.18 NSC report found "no compelling case" that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. The same memo also stated that Bin Laden resented the secular nature of Hussein’s regime, and there was no record of any cooperation on any unconventional weapons.
Source: 9/11 Commission Report, pgs. 334-336
(In case you care, my take on the 9/11 report is that its worth reading but cannot be taken literally, its too biased, such as no mention of the collapse of WTC 7 and to me some of the recommendations are laughable, and but it portrays hapless government leadership, especially Clinton, who missed opportunity after opportunity to kill/bring to justice Bin Laden before 9/11. It portrays a group of frightened chicken-hawks professing false bravado who are incapable of taking him out – unless he’s dead already. The other 'surprise' was just how readily Cheney took assumed the mantle of power. At any rate, Bush did not even hesitate in immediately resorting to a path of invade-sovereign-nations-and-then-occupy-them, and I have to condemn him for this.)
8) America Commits War Crimes Against Humanity
In Vietnam, the most infamous was the My Lai Massacre, which is covered below in more detail in Colin Powell’s section.
In Iraq, the most infamous is the Tortures of Abu Ghraib, violating multiple Geneva Conventions. A close second is the Tortures of Guantanamo Bay and many other prisons that still remain open today. In Abu Ghraib, Rumsfeld personally authorized sleep deprivation, stress positions, blasting music, and failing to register prisoners. These are all violations of the Geneva Convention, and this in addition to the infamous photos released. Concerning whether Geneva Conventions apply to Guantanamo, John Yoo’s now infamous statement was: "The Guantanamo Bay detains people detained in the war on terrorism. The Geneva Conventions do not apply to the war on terrorism. There is no nation state that has signed the Geneva Conventions with which we're fighting. We're fighting a non-state organization with a collection of people from all kinds of countries, and these people violate the laws of war at the very core and use it to kill lots of civilians, as we saw on Sept. 11." If Bin Laden is alive, he would probably retort "We are fighting a nation state that signed the Geneva Conventions and is not obeying them, as we see war crimes against Iraqis in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and other prisons. We're fighting a state organization, and these people violate the laws of war at the very core and use it to kill lots of civilians, as we see in Iraq and Afghanistan, among many other places in the past such as Vietnam and Cambodia."
9) Use of Real "WMD" Against Civilians. Biochemical or Radiation Warfare
In Vietnam, Agent Orange and other Rainbow Herbicides were dumped in massive quantities over SE Asia (est. 75,700,000 liters in fact!) causing death, diseases and birth defects, as well as poisoning the food chain.
In Iraq, untold amounts of Depleted Uranium (300-800 tons during the 1991 Gulf War, and at least several hundred more tons during the Invasion) are causing death, Gulf War Syndrome, all sorts of genetic diseases, miscarriages, sterility, and poisoning the air and water supply.
10) The Legacy of Colin Powell Will Be to Have Lied in Both Wars
In Vietnam, 31-year-old Army Major Colin Powell covered up or whitewashed atrocities by American soldiers against civilians, including the infamous My Lai massacre. For those who are unaware, during the My Lai massacre 350-500 unarmed Vietnamese, mostly women and children were raped, maimed, beaten, tortured, and killed. Then some of the dead bodies were mutilated. All of this was undeniably committed by American troops. And probably the only thing unusual about the My Lai massacre was that it was actually made it to the public arena and trial. You ask Why? Well, my humble view is that War places humans in an evil, tough situation where morals can easily be compromised, but it did not help that the average age of American soldiers was an impressionable 19 years old during Vietnam, most got abbreviated "Shake-N-Bake" training, then got handed a rifle and told to kill "gooks." Even worse, the average tour of duty was 1 year so there was little experienced leadership. In the words of one serviceman, Americans "were not in Vietnam for 10 years, but for one year 10 times."
In his report Powell wrote: "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent." Powell's handling of the assignment was later characterized by some observers as "whitewashing" the atrocities of My Lai. In May 2004, Powell as Secretary of State told Larry King "I mean, I was in a unit that was responsible for My Lai. I got there after My Lai happened. So, in war, these sorts of horrible things happen every now and again, but they are still to be deplored." The strange use of the word "still" here may reveal more about the warped world Powell lives in than the rest of the interview.
Thirty-five years later, Secretary of State Colin Powell would lie again, this time to the United Nations Security Council about Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction, the supposed direct cause of the invasion. In his own words this was based on "solid sources" "not assertions" "facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence." Attached is a reflection from Powell’s chief of staff, Colonel Wilkerson from the movie "The Israel Lobby."
11) Lastly, Murder of American Students by the National Guard in America.
In Vietnam, the Kent State and Jackson State Massacres occurred after the expansion of the war into neutral Cambodia. Rioting over five days by students resulted in the deaths of four (4) students and wounding of nine (9) by gunfire, as well as bayoneting of students and injuries to National Guardsmen at Kent State College. Ten days after Kent State, two (2) more students were shot to death by police at Jackson State. Never heard of it? Perhaps because Jackson State’s student population was "historically black"
In Iraq, after the expansion of the war into neutral Iran – oh wait, this hasn’t happened yet – hopefully as you read this is still a fabrication. What would be interesting is if instead of waiting for the Iran War to start, students went on strike just like 8 Million students did after Kent State. What would be interesting is if instead of waiting, Citizens descend on Washington, DC to peacefully protest, driving President Bush away to Camp David for several days, similar to what 100,000 irate Citizens did to President Nixon with guns and rioting after Kent State.
This article above is a tribute to my father. May the Children of Tomorrow not have to Fight a Third Vietnam. May We the People, their Parents, be Brave enough to Secure this Future.
I've discovered you can't write about Vietnam without being troubled by McCain - not that his story is all that evil - I find it sad - but that there is a chance that America will elect a flawed man like this to be Our President, and represent us to the world, when he will assume the same aggressive stance as Bush. I don't think the typical American is aware of the below, which can be found mostly by Wiki searches.
McCain has this image of a being a normal Joe Blow who was tortured during the war, but the truth the American public should know is McCain is anything but. He is really a Military Aristocrat. Granddaddy McCain was a 4-star Admiral, Daddy McCain was the Admiral-Top Dog during Vietnam who married a rich oil heiress. After his return, McCain would eventually start an affair and divorce his first wife, a professional model who (faithfully) waited for him to return but whose beauty was marred by an automobile accident, for a rich beer heiress (net worth >$100 million!). McCain has apologized publicly for this, and after all he has been through, I sympathize.
McCain went to Annapolis where he graduated a dismal 894 of 899, the "Admiral’s son" who apparently had troubles with authority and rules and had temper issues. During peacetime duty in the inhospitable Caribbean and Mediterranean Seas, McCain had a reputation for being a party man, and his flying skills were so acute that he crashed two planes and smashed a third into power lines WITHOUT being attacked. At age 30, McCain finally went to war in Vietnam. McCain was frustrated by the micromanagement from Washington. He wrote "In all candor, we thought our civilian commanders were complete idiots who didn’t have the least notion of what it took to win the war." (I note here that the President is the top civilian commander, and since McCain obviously believes he can win wars, my main question is how to define when the Iraq War is won? How to define when the Global War on Terror is won? I have not heard answers that make sense from this candidate) McCain’s simple job was to fly over Vietnam and bomb it to hell, but was shot down (or just crashed? Just Kidding, but you have to wonder!) during bombing run #23.
He was horribly tortured, his hair quickly went white and was a POW for over five years, two of which were in solitary confinement (hear that does wonders for a man’s mind, ask Jose Padilla in my "We the People vs the Might of the Government" article below. Wish McCain had had the conviction to have stood up for him!). So he is a rich, adulterous, at one time was semi-sane, imperious, and not-very-book-smart military aristocrat who has crashed at least 3 planes. Sounds more like a certain Saudi Terrorist than an American Hero. Anyways, I am sure his leadership in the Senate has demonstrated he will make a fine President one day. Oh, finally it is questionable whether he even constitutionally qualifies to be president as he was born in the American Military Empire on a base in Panama. Proof below. (Please note I have absolutely no challenge whatsover that he is a Citizen, just that perhaps he does not constitutionally qualify to be President.) While most Americans grew up in one or several hometowns in the continental US, McCain grew up moving from military base to base, switching schools about 20 times for his father's career. I am sure he will not forget his roots in the military empire as the next Emperor of the USA, the Grand Poom-bah himself.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
As always, unlike the NFL, the author grants full permission to allow any accounts of, rebroadcasts, retransmissions, repostings in part or full of this article to your blog or anywhere else in order to promote the Restoration of our Republic.
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Largely fiction. Tired old paradigms and unproven conspiracy theories. More progressive leftist propaganda typified by unilateral blame for the United States. You do hate America Jake, and it isn't subtle at all.
May I suggest reading a broad range of books on Vietman and synthesizing the knowledge. For instance, you can't claim to know what you claim about the Gulf of Tonkin incident unless you were there, in the secret meeting where the big conspiracy to fake an attack was cooked up.
But it's more than that. You don't represent the whole context of the situation. In any way shape or form.
Am I mistaken? Is this actually a forum for fiction short stories?
The link to the NSA seems to be disabled. A search for the item on the NSA website itself yields quite a few articles related to the Gulf of Tonkin.
The YouTube video doesn't claim what you claim it claims. I add that it doesn't matter anyway. An attack didn't need to happen because we were there at the request of the South Vietnamese government anyway, and they were under attack too. And plus, there already was a resolution in place anyway which gave LBJ authority to respond.
Plus this was a SEATO situation.
The US isn't always evil, Jake. All in all, we're the best system on the planet. Or at least we used to be, until the Domino Theory deniers finally succeeded in subverting every institution in the country. Even while they denied that it wasn't happening.
Posted By: Jake, the Champion of the Constitution
Date: 2009-06-21 09:15:03
Dear Jonathan -
I suggest you read Karnow, Stanley. 1983. Vietnam: A History.
Thanks for pointing out the NSA link is disabled. I will post the original downloaded PDF link into the article. I suggest you read that as, it makes my points.
In reply to your assertation about evil - no America certainly isn't "evil" - especially most individuals. It is our foreign policy that has led us far, far astray. If I hated America, I would have stayed abroad and not decided to run for Congress.
You certainly do not need to agree with me, but please grow up Jonathan.
It's not an issue of "growing up" for me, Jake. It's an issue of you not being able to disagree without resorting to personal attacks.
I'll read the NSA report you reference, but I predict it will say what I already know the facts to be. It will be another informational black hole like the supposed "smoking gun" confession video you linked to. But again, Jake, the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not needed as a pretext for military involvement. It certainly was clumsy if it was a pretext. But, that begs the point, because there was an attack on an American ship.
The dishonesty of the left on Vietnam is wildly apparent when we consider who they accuse and who and what they ignore, in regards to the overall history of Vietnam. And it's not ironic that they've thrown the architect of the Great Society to the wolves, because LBJ had the temerity to challenge Communism.
So, call me "ignorant" or tell me to "grow up" if you'd like, but you're still on the wrong side of the facts, the history and the politics. You'll probably make a perfect politician for today's climate I think. Don't let anything stand in your way!
Posted By: Jake, the Champion of the Constitution
Date: 2009-06-25 14:03:25
Jonathan -
Personal attacks? Perhaps I've misconstrued "You do hate America Jake, and it isn't subtle at all." or " Is this actually a forum for fiction short stories?"
You have failed to provide any evidence to make your point. Feel free to do so if you wish. I think you would enjoy Karnow'sVietnam: A History.
Read the report, Jake. Doesn't say anything new. Just the same old stuff. Calling you "anti-American" isn't a personal attack. It's a statement from observed attitude. You are against America and you excuse the actions of the enemies of freedom, unconditionally, with no critique at all. In other words, if the sides in this conflict were reversed, but the events remained the same, you would still be against America.
Your attacks on me are personal, because they are just insubstantial name calling.
Here's what the South Vietnamese President Thieu said regarding the Vietnam War, at various times...
"The United States did not keep its promise to help us fight for freedom and it was in the same fight that the United States lost 50,000 of its young men."
"You ran away and left us to do the job that you could not do."
"To live without freedom is to have already died."
"Don't listen to what the Communists say, but look at what they do."
See, Jake, all the "common wisdom" produced and promulgated by the leftist media and education system, to fool ignorant people, muddies the true history. Fortunately, truth hasn't been lost on many people who've had to fight for freedom from tyranny.
The disgraceful anti-war efforts of this country in Vietnam amounted to an American renunciation of all it held dear in previous generations. A repudiation of the efforts of successive presidents to stem the advance of totalitarianism around the world. In the process, it ushered in the age of nihilism. Part of this antiwar effort is embodied in Tarnow's book, perhaps reflecting an innocent but misguided set of worldviews on his part. Perhaps not.
President Thieu escaped the communists in 1975 and eventually ended up in America, where he died in 2001. I only wish I could have sat down and talked to him before he passed away. His thoughts on what he saw occurring in this country would have been priceless.
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