John McCain Born in Panama, can he even be President?
The Constitution clearly states only those born in the United States may be President by Robert Werden
(libertarian)
Thursday, January 31, 2008
This is not open to interpretation or overturned by the 14th Amendment as it is very clear in the Constitution that the founders were being very specific on who could be the President.
The 14th Amendment was not written to change the rules of who could be the President, it was to determine citizenship. Citizenship does not allow just anyone to be the President. Only those born in the United States have that privilege.
Although John McCain was born in Panama many would argue that he was born in a US territory and is considered a US citizen. Being a citizen is not the litmus test the founders directed when they wrote the requirements to become the President.
A territory is not the United States. The United States is one of the 50 states. If Panama was a state things would be different. However Panama is a sovereign Country.
If this were the case, then we would have to allow all children born on US territories to be naturalized citizens. For example, if an Iraqi woman has an American service mans baby in a hospital in Iraq that happens to be a US Military base, then the baby would be born in US territory. This is not what the founders would have contemplated as a US naturalized citizen.
While this is probably an issue the courts would most likely rule that McCain is fully eligible to be the President, I my self would not vote for a person who is questionably walking a fine line on the founding fathers rule of Presidential eligibility.
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I have to disagree with your statement that the Constitution clearly states that only those born in the U.S. may be President. The text of the Art. II, Sec. 1 of the Constitution states, in part, that "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President . . ."
This can obviously be interpreted in various ways - not of which are necessarily clear or obvious. One reading would mean that you must be born a U.S. Citizen (i.e., not naturalized) in order to be eligible for the Presidency. This reading would allow McCain to be President. Another reading (yours) would only allow those born on U.S. soil to be eligible for the Presidency - and you interpret this to be one of the 50 states and not a U.S. territory. This would preclude Barry Goldwater who was born in Arizona before it was admitted as a state. It would also preclude anyone born in Washington D.C. (not a state), and Puerto Rico (not a state). Perhaps you didn't mean to exclude individuals born within U.S. political territories that happen to not be states - which would resolve this particular problem.
In addition, you are incorrect about a U.S. military base being U.S. territory for the purposes of the Constitution. Someone who is born on a military base is not a U.S. citizen simply because they were born on the base. If, using your example, an Iraqi woman had the child of a U.S. Service member on a U.S. base, the child would be a U.S. citizen by virtue of the fathers citizenship (assuming paternity is proven). The location of birth would be irrelevant. If an Iraqi woman had a baby on a U.S. military base and the father was also Iraqi, this child would not be a U.S. Citizen at all.
The real issue is whether or not the individual had to be naturalized in order to be a U.S. citizen. If not, then they must have been born a citizen and are eligible for the Presidency. If they had to be naturalized then they were not "natural born."
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a McCain fan. But I don't think that twisting the meaning of the Constitution or trying to imply that it explicitly bars U.S. citizens who were born overseas due to military matters is an appropriate way to prevent someone from running. It also seems far-fetched that the Founders would have agreed to a rule that would bar someone in McCain's position - burn on a military base because his father was serving the U.S. military and his mother had joined them and kept the family together. Preventing the children of service members who are stationed overseas from being eligible to run for the Presidency could not have been their intention.
What Lazarus Long nicely said. Come on authors, do some fact checking during your final edit; provocative titles with no meat can prove irksome. I read this hoping that you'd point out that while we're stuck listening to McCain, at least we'll never have to ponder Schwarzenegger in a national debate.
"To those critics who are so pessimistic about our economy, I say, Don't be economic girlie men!" -- Arnold
United States Code Title 8 Aliens and Nationality CHAPTER 12 - IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY SUBCHAPTER III - NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION Article PART I - NATIONALITY AT BIRTH AND COLLECTIVE NATURALIZATION Section 1403 - Persons born in the Canal Zone or Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904
(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.
(b) Any person born in the Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States employed by the Government of the United States or by the Panama Railroad Company, or its successor in title, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.
It worries me that Robert Werden would write this article, and that it would be posted, with so little in the way of real information or fact checking. The statement that anyone born in the US Canal Zone is NOT an American citizen is an afront to Zonies everywhere. Be careful Mr. Werden because there are tens of thousands of them. Somewhat stateless and confused, James Earl Carter pulled the rug out from under three generations of people who look like, talk like Americans but were born in what is today, the Republic of Panama. Anyone born in the Zone either carries two passports or is eligible to do so. The Panamanian passport became available to them under the Carter-Torrijos Treaty of 1976.
By law as stated in the previous post Mr. McCain and everyone else who was born in the now deteriorating Zone, or the "reverted areas" as the current anti-US Torrijos government calls it, is a US citizen.
Where Werden failed to go with his ill-researched opinion is that McCain, if he so desires,and for a few dollars and some paperwork could actually and legally hold dual citizenship...like every other Zonie.
Could a Zonie run for office here in Panama? Under the Panamanian constitution the answer would be yes. Would a "gringo' stand a gnat's chance of election? The answer would be no. However, as poor as the infrastructure is throughout the country, the thin veneer of democracy being rubbed off by the current ruling party and with corruption at every level of officialdom, I am encouraging my Panamanian friends who will vote in 2009 to write McCain in on their ballots...
A Panamanian president named John McCain would be a vast improvement over the choices the people of Panama have today..and it might be a good place to ride out a Hillary Clinton or Barak Obama presidency.
Perhaps John McCain can hold dual president positions, and run both countries. He's qualified in all respects! Panama is and will most likely will remain be a mirror image of the US. I hope Panamanians do write his name on their ballots.
Posted By: Arthur Lawrance
Date: 2008-02-04 12:05:58
I was born in Christobar Canal Zone, hospital. But, My Birth Certificate says I was born in Colon, Republic of Panama. Coco Solo Naval Base Hospital in the Canal Zone was not built when McCain was born in 1936, it was built during WWII. He was most likely born in the same Hospital that I was. If his parents did not go the the America Consult in Panama and register his birth using Form No.240a when he was born he is not US Citizen. There are a lot of "rules" covering US Citizen whos chrildren were born over seas. Which I will not cover here. Mark my words that if he win the election in 2008 then Democrates will take it to Court.
Statement: John McCain is eligible to become President of the United States.
Proof:
(1) If a child is born to two U.S. citizen parents abroad, and if either U.S. citizen parent has resided in the United States for any length of time prior to the birth of the child, the child acquires U.S. citizenship at the time of birth under the provisions of Section 301 (c) of the United States Immigration and Nationality Act. Failure to file consular form FS-240 does not constitute a revokation or voluntary reliquishment of U.S. citizenship.
(2) Anyone who aquires U.S. citizenship at the time of birth is a natural born citizen, according to the principle of jus sanguinis.
(3) Amendment 14 states that only "natural borth" U.S. citizens are eligible to become President of the United States.
(4) By (1), (2), and (3), John McCain is eligible to become President of the United States.
As Republican voters and True Conservatives, we oppose any effort to promote, support, or endorse Senator John McCain as the Republican nominee for President in 2008. As Republican voters and True Conservatives, we will only support candidates who promote the philosophy and principles of conservatism in government; who promote smaller government, fiscal discipline, and greater economic and personal freedoms; and whose records of public service are evidence of their principled beliefs.
Senator John McCain has consistently demonstrated a record of public service counter to the philosophy and principles of conservatism and the Republican Party as evidenced by the following facts:
1. He has a consistent pattern of shocking verbal abuse, including screaming profanities, against Senate Republican colleagues who oppose his bills in any way; and
2. He has exercised scandalously poor judgment by intervening with the federal regulators on behalf of Charles H. Keating, Jr. in the Savings and Loan Crisis of the 1980s; and
3. He has worked against the principles of the Republican Party, promoting greatly expanding federal regulatory authority in order to combat global warming in ways that would greatly burden the American economy, contrary to free market forces; and
4. He has fought the Republican Party to create the Patient’s Bill of Rights, which allowed the government to impose a set of burdensome mandates on insurance coverage; and
5. He has undermined the principles of a free market economy by voting for an amendment that would authorize the Secretary of Health and Human Services to implement price controls on prescription drugs under Medicare; and
6. He has worked against the Republican Party to make a mockery of the rule of law, promoting amnesty for 20 million illegal immigrants; and
7. He has voted to subvert American Sovereignty by granting consulting rights to Mexico concerning the erection of a southern border fence; and
8. He has undermined the Constitution and opposed the Constitutional duties of the Vice President to break a tie on judicial nominations; and
9. He has worked against Conservative principles, undermining the First Amendment by abridging the free speech of citizens partaking in the political process; and
10. He has consistently led efforts undermining Second Amendment rights by promoting bills which regulate all sales at gun shows; regulations which force gun-owners to purchase trigger locks, making their firearms useless for self-defense; regulations which restrict the legitimate transfer of firearms over the internet; and regulations which extend the restrictions of the Brady bill to pawn shops and gun repair shops; and
11. He has voted to use taxpayer funds to harvest stem cells from human embryos; and
12. He has refused to take immediate and direct action to protect the life of the unborn; he opposes the repeal of Roe v. Wade; and he opposes a constitutional amendment to protect all human life; and
13. He sponsored and voted for a 282% tax increase on cigarettes that would have unconstitutionally violated the First Amendment and increased the size of the federal bureaucracy exponentially by giving the FDA unrestricted control over nicotine; and
14. He supports raising Social Security taxes; and
15. He has broken with the Republican Party in strongly opposing President Bush’s tax cuts in 2001 and 2003. He also joined leading liberal senators in offering and voting for amendments designed to undermine the tax cuts.
If you are born from US parents in a US military base, are you a citizen of Panama? . He doesn´t have a Panama passport or ID. He is not listed on Panama´s birth registry.
I am a republican and would vote for McCain except for his statement about the iraq war. I believe we should try to pull out of Iraq for our economy, etc. He seems to want to stay there for 100 years regardless if we can afford it or not. I don't like any of the presidential options.
I just received this email link about this subject and found the arguments to be very interesting. It looks like it is possible that by law, John McCain is a naturalized citizen, but yet he is not a natual citizen because he was not born on American soil. If that were the case he would not be elligable by law to be a President. If it is true... Huck would have to run against Ron Paul. ( no contest )
Posted By: Jahfre Fire Eater
Date: 2008-02-28 17:45:21
There is a huge list of reasons not to elect McCain but this one doesn't even make the list.
Is there really anyone who thinks children of active service members on assignment outside our borders are not citizens? I would hope not but if there are this would be a great time for them to learn to pick their battles. This is nonsense.
There is DEFINITELY a constitutional question that needs to be addressed here. By the loose definitions people are putting out there on this topic, the iraqi women who were raped by US soldiers, gave birth to American citizens. Panama is and was in the 930's, a sovereign nation, just like iraq. The question is not is mccain a citizen, it's is he a natural born citizen and eligible to become president.
Google "Panamanchurian Candidate". It's all there.
McCain was never a natural born citizen and he knows it. Hence the actions by hiring Ted Olson, the McCaskill-Obama legislation (see WaPo), the mislabeling of his birthplace on his own bio, and the lack of releasing his own birth certificate for the world to see.
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; "
Here is the citation at issue from the Naturalization Act of 1790: “… And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens:”
Here is the portion of the Naturalization Act of 1795 thatrepealed the Naturalization Act of 1790:… and the children of citizens of the United States born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States.
The State of California is no different than any other state in the republic. Its requirements for a valid candidate for the Democratic Party are the same as the Republican Party.
Information Sheet of Qualifications and Requirements PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE QUALIFICATION PROCEDURES MARCH 7, 2000 PRIMARY ELECTION DEMOCRATIC PARTY
I. QUALIFICATIONS The candidate must: A. Be a natural-born citizen of the United States B. Be at least 35 years of age, and C. Be a resident of the United States at least 14 years.
John Jay in a letter to George Washington on July 25, 1787 wrote the following concerning natural-born citizenship being a requirement for the office of the President and Commander in Chief. “Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.” There was no debate, and this qualification for the office of the Presidency was introduced by the drafting Committee of Eleven, and then adopted without discussion by the Constitutional Convention.
Being born to US parents in Puerto Rico or Guam or in any foreign US military base (locations that are not within the fifty states) establishes automatic naturalized citizenship but not natural-born citizenship. Wake Island is not Alabama or Texas.
The root of the natural birth requirement was that the States formed the federal government and they required that a person must be physically born in one of the states. (Note: See the 10th Amendment, for example). Simply being born on US territory or commonwealth property overseas does not qualify you as being natural born. This is also a related source/reason for the Electoral College. The States elect the executive and not the people because we do not have a democracy but a republic. The two are not the same but are antithetical.
The STATES elect the President. Does Panama have votes in the electoral college?
Would you have attempted to make this lame argument when Barry Goldwater (also born outside the US) was running?
Does Panama have votes in the electoral college?
Yes, actually. At the time the Canal Zone existed it had votes in the electoral college, just like Guam and Puerto Rico do now. In fact, US citizens living in embassies and on military bases around the world has representation just as if they lived in their home state. So that argument has no merit at all.
Posted By: US Citizen Abroad
Date: 2008-03-04 15:10:18
You are clearly an idiot and have no idea what you are talking about. Babies born to US Citizens abroad have the right to be natural born US Citizens. I don't say it's automatic, because you have to claim that right and do the paperwork before the child turns 18 years old.
McCain's eligibility has nothing to do with Panama being a territory or not, it has to do with his parents being US Citizens.
My son was born in France, and I and his mother are US Citizens. He is a natural born US Citizen, and eligible to be POTUS some day if elected.
Posted By: Rex A. Brocki
Date: 2008-03-05 21:15:33
Dear "U.S. Citizen Abroad," (I'm one too, by the way, I currently live in Canada),
I have read literally hundreds of posts on this subject, and I have been waiting to see if ANYONE besides myself could point to actual, personal experience. Congratulations... you're the first one I've seen.
I hope for your son's sake that you are correct about his natural born citizenship, but my own mother's experience was exactly the opposite. She was born in the Union of South Africa. I'm certainly not going to post her personal papers on the internet, but I have copies of them, and her birth certificate clearly shows the U.S. Citizenship of both her parents, as does her "Report of a U.S. Citizen Born Abroad" her parents filed with the U.S. Consulate in Johannesburg the week of her birth, AND the copies sent for registration to the U.S. State Department when the family returned to the CONUS when she was one and a half years of age. Until she was in her fifties, she thought she was "native born."
Imagine her surprise when the state of California cancelled her teacher's credential, AND the State Department cancelled her passport because she was actually naturalized. I have personal knowledge of the ensuing legal fight, because I'm the one who had to do most of it, driving her to Sacramento for the hearings and eventual re-issuance of her credential (the State of California, for reasons best known to the Prince of Darkness-- pardon me, my contempt for bureaucracy is showing-- has two seperate paths to a teacher's credential, depending on whether the applicant is native-born or naturalized).
Your son ABSOLUTELY has the right to be a U.S. Citizen-- but if his case is similar to that of my mother (or daughter, as well, proving that the rules functioned the same way in both 1927 and 1978), you will eventually find that the U.S. Government considers him naturalized. Remember that my mother lived over 50 years in the U.S. before she found out.
A) If a person must be born "in one of the 50 states" to be eligible for President, then anyone born in Washington, DC would not be so eligible.
B) The Constitution does not say one must be born "in the United States"; it says one must be a natural-born citizen - meaning only that one must be born a citizen to be eligible. It doesn't matter where, or why - only that the person be a citizen at birth. John McCain was.
Posted By: Please check your facts
Date: 2008-05-13 20:29:17
Natural-born citizen
Who is a natural-born citizen? Who, in other words, is a citizen at birth, such that that person can be a President someday?
The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps.
Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"
Anyone born inside the United States
Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.
I know of several people whom will file a law suit in Fedral Court if McCain becomes our next president.
He is not a natural born citizen of the United states. He was born under the Panama Flag on Panama soil and under the United States Flag on a piece of land that was leased by the United States.
This includes Hawaii & Alaska and if a person was born prior to them joining the Union then they are not natural born. After they joined the Union and any one born after that date and time is a Natural Born Citizen of the United States.
What constitue a United States Territory is that a country can't run on thier own constitution so they adopt the United States constituation and in return, the U.S. Military gets to stay there at little or no cost. The only high office in government is the governorship of that country. Guam, Porta Rico & Virgine Islands is a good example. If you want a good example, look at the Phillippins history.
Our constitution says it in black and white. Read what it says and not into it or between the lines.
It just to go and show us that if he succeds and prevails as the president then its just nothing short of selling out America.
I think some of you need to reread the constitution word for word and get a dictionay to see what the meaning is for big words.
I know of several people whom will file a law suit in Fedral Court if McCain becomes our next president.
He is not a natural born citizen of the United states. He was born under the Panama Flag on Panama soil and under the United States Flag on a piece of land that was leased by the United States.
This includes Hawaii & Alaska and if a person was born prior to them joining the Union then they are not natural born. After they joined the Union and any one born after that date and time is a Natural Born Citizen of the United States.
What constitue a United States Territory is that a country can't run on thier own constitution so they adopt the United States constituation and in return, the U.S. Military gets to stay there at little or no cost. The only high office in government is the governorship of that country. Guam, Porta Rico & Virgine Islands is a good example. If you want a good example, look at the Phillippins history.
Our constitution says it in black and white. Read what it says and not into it or between the lines.
It just to go and show us that if he succeds and prevails as the president then its just nothing short of selling out America.
I think some of you need to reread the constitution word for word and get a dictionay to see what the meaning is for big words.
Posted By: Darryl W. Perry
Date: 2008-07-27 09:46:44
re:Posted By: mdhatter
Date: 2008-02-04 13:39:16
"It is my opinion that that question is entirely irrelevant, if you've read the constitution. Yes, clearly, he can be.
Naturalized citizens know that, because it's on the test. It's a shame they have to know more than the rest of us natural citizens."
I remember my Senior Year of High School having to take US Government, on the first day, the teacher passed out a "pop-quiz" to see what we already knew. After scoring the test and passing them back out, she asked everyone that scored above a certain score to raise their hand, about half of the class rose their hand. She said, "congratulations, you've just passed the US Citizenship test, the rest of you failed".
No, John McCain is not eligible for the presidency.
Lazarus said:
I have to disagree with your statement that the Constitution clearly states that only those born in the U.S. may be President. The text of the Art. II, Sec. 1 of the Constitution states, in part, that "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President . . ."
This can obviously be interpreted in various ways - not of which are necessarily clear or obvious. One reading would mean that you must be born a U.S. Citizen (i.e., not naturalized) in order to be eligible for the Presidency. This reading would allow McCain to be President. Another reading (yours) would only allow those born on U.S. soil to be eligible for the Presidency - and you interpret this to be one of the 50 states and not a U.S. territory. This would preclude Barry Goldwater who was born in Arizona before it was admitted as a state. It would also preclude anyone born in Washington D.C. (not a state), and Puerto Rico (not a state). Perhaps you didn't mean to exclude individuals born within U.S. political territories that happen to not be states - which would resolve this particular problem.
1. I think that Robert Werden may have meant U.S. territory even if he said otherwise. Perhaps he was distinguishing "future states" (i.e. Hawaii, Alaska, Southwest territory, and every other current American state outside of the original 13) from imperial possessions (i.e. Puerto Rico, Guam, the Phillippines before independence, U.S. Virgin Islands, other Pacific Islands). Under the territorial definition, anyone born on American territory whether or not it was a state at the time of their birth is a natural born citizen of the United States. However, McCain is still not a natural born citizen. Panama was never made a state, nor was it even a U.S. territory. Panama was at most a protectorate of the U.S. The Panama Canal Zone was leased, but it was never annexed by the United States. If in fact Robert meant that someone must be born in a state (which would exclude D.C. and US territories before statehood, thus disqualifying Barry Goldwater, who was born in Southwest Territory shortly before Arizona attained statehood) to be considered a natural born citizen, I think he is mistaken. I am fairly certain that the Framers considered a natural born citizen anyone who was born within the United States, OR any of its territory. Either way, John McCain is still ineligible for the presidency. Where Barry Goldwater was a natural born citizen, John McCain was not.
2. Nor was McCain born a U.S. citizen. John McCain is indeed, an American citizen, but he is a naturalized citizen. Only under jus soli ("right of the soil") is natural-born citizenship status defined. (See below)
"In addition, you are incorrect about a U.S. military base being U.S. territory for the purposes of the Constitution. Someone who is born on a military base is not a U.S. citizen simply because they were born on the base. If, using your example, an Iraqi woman had the child of a U.S. Service member on a U.S. base, the child would be a U.S. citizen by virtue of the fathers citizenship (assuming paternity is proven). The location of birth would be irrelevant. If an Iraqi woman had a baby on a U.S. military base and the father was also Iraqi, this child would not be a U.S. Citizen at all."
Actually, Werden IS correct. American military bases, embassies, consular facilities, etc. are not constitutional territory of the United States. Also, the example you provided is a case of jus sanguinis ("right of blood"). Jus sanguinis has no basis in American law, however jus soli does. In a nutshell, location and not ancestry determines whether someone is a natural born citizen. The bastard son or daughter of a U.S. Service member is not a natural born citizen. (Unless of course said individual was born in the United States or actual territory thereof.)
The real issue is whether or not the individual had to be naturalized in order to be a U.S. citizen. If not, then they must have been born a citizen and are eligible for the Presidency. If they had to be naturalized then they were not "natural born."
John McCain is an American citizen but not a natural-born citizen according to common law. He was granted citizenship via statutory technicality. Therefore, McCain is a naturalized citizen under American law.
Russ said:
The statement that anyone born in the US Canal Zone is NOT an American citizen is an afront to Zonies everywhere.
Not so. People born in the Panama Canal Zone are NOT natural-born citizens of the United States. However, "Zonies" are indeed American citizens if born to at least one parent who was a citizen at the time of their birth according to 8 USC 1403. Thus, John McCain, being born to citizen parents in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 is a naturalized citizen under U.S. Federal Law.
"Could a Zonie run for office here in Panama? Under the Panamanian constitution the answer would be yes."
Of course! I do not see why not. After all, Panama was the lessor of the Canal Zone, the United States was the lessee. Thus, the PCZ is Panamanian territory. John McCain was born in Panama, not the United States.
"A Panamanian president named John McCain would be a vast improvement over the choices the people of Panama have today..and it might be a good place to ride out a Hillary Clinton or Barak Obama presidency."
Indeed, John McCain should do the honorable thing and forfeit the race for president of the United States and run for president of Panama, leaving the nomination to the delegates to pick the only good Republican, Ron Paul. Also, it is interesting to point out that a McCain-loving neocon would desert the United States upon election of the Democrat. This should dissolve any notion that neocons are patriotic, despite their calling critics of imperialism "unpatriotic."
LCDR(SW) D.C. Richardson USN/RET said:
"Perhaps John McCain can hold dual president positions, and run both countries. He's qualified in all respects! Panama is and will most likely will remain be a mirror image of the US. I hope Panamanians do write his name on their ballots."
LONG LIVE THE AMERICAN EMPIRE! SOON PANAMA WILL UNITE WITH THE UNITED STATES. PANAMA WILL BE THE FIFTY-FIRST STATE! THEN WE WILL FINALLY GRANT STATEHOOD TO PUERTO-RICO, THE U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS, GUAM, AND AMERICAN SAMOA. OUR NEW PANAMANIAN TROOPS WILL RECONQUER THE PHILIPPINES, RESTORING THE OLD AMERICAN COLONIAL EMPIRE. LATER OUR PANAMANIAN SPECIAL FORCES WILL LEAD US TO VICTORY IN IRAQ AND IRAN. THE PANAMANIAN ELITE WILL CRUSH THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD. ONCE IRAQ, IRAN, AND AFGHANISTAN ARE THOUROUGHLY CONQUERED AND PACIFIED (IN ABOUT 100 YEARS), WE CAN ANNEX THOSE TERRITORIES, PERHAPS JOINING ALL THREE PREVIOUSLY SOVEREIGN NATIONS INTO THE STATE OF "AMERIKASTAN" AND LEAD THE MIDDLE EAST. WHAT NEXT? OUR OLD NATO ALLIES WILL TREMBLE , AS THE EU FEARS THE AMERICAN JUGGERNAUT. PERHAPS THE AMERO-PANAMANIAN EMPIRE WILL FORM A COMMONWEALTH WITH ISRAEL (WHO WILL BE DIRECTING OUR MIDEAST POLICY AFTER ALL). PERHAPS THEN WE CAN CRUSH SYRIA AND LEBANON. ALL YOUR COUNTRIES ARE BELONG TO US!
Arguably, John McCain is qualified in all respects! ...to be dictator of Earth. As President of the United States he is not qualified.
(cue Imperial March/Darth Vader theme)
...Seriously, the madness of the neocons is astounding!
justanotheridiot said:
Statement: John McCain is eligible to become President of the United States.
No he is not.
(1) If a child is born to two U.S. citizen parents abroad, and if either U.S. citizen parent has resided in the United States for any length of time prior to the birth of the child, the child acquires U.S. citizenship at the time of birth under the provisions of Section 301 (c) of the United States Immigration and Nationality Act. Failure to file consular form FS-240 does not constitute a revokation or voluntary reliquishment of U.S. citizenship.
8 USC 1401(c) does indeed give "citizenship at birth" to a person born abroad to two citizen parents. Note the operative word, abroad, referring to births which occurred outside of the United States, hence governed by the Immigration and Nationality Act. As a result, the "born in the United States" clause of the 14th Amendment cannot apply to this form of citizenship. The citizenship conferred at birth is governed by lex soli ("law of the soil"), i.e. naturalization. Also, because John McCain was born in 1936 and the Immigration and Naturalization Act was passed in 1952, arguably, McCain can not be said to have "citizenship at birth." He was naturalized as a teenager. Finally, citizenship "at birth" has a larger scope of meaning than "natural born citizenship" (governed by jus soli). Citizenship at birth includes birth within the United States, governed by jus soli, and birth beyond the United States, governed by lex soli.
(2) Anyone who aquires U.S. citizenship at the time of birth is a natural born citizen, according to the principle of jus sanguinis.
The principle of jus sangunis has absolutely no basis in U.S. law. American citizenship is governed entirely by the principles of jus soli and lex soli (naturalization). A citizen may be naturalized at birth. Because John McCain was not born within American territory, his citizenship falls outside of the bounds of jus soli. McCain's citizenship is therefore attained via naturalization.
(3) Amendment 14 states that only "natural borth" U.S. citizens are eligible to become President of the United States.
Amendment 14 also grants citizens to those born within the United States. Those born outside the United States attain citizenship via lex soli (naturalization).
(4) By (1), (2), and (3), John McCain is eligible to become President of the United States.
Does not follow. Premises (2) and (3) are incorrect.
Panameiio said:
If you are born from US parents in a US military base, are you a citizen of Panama? . He doesn´t have a Panama passport or ID. He is not listed on Panama´s birth registry.
Is that so? Nobody has confirmed that so far. Even if in fact McCain does not have a Panamanian birth certificate, that does not grant him American citizenship by default. Would a child born on a speedboat in international waters be a natural born citizen of the United States of America? (Hint: jus sanguinis has no legal basis in the United States.)
bryan said:
There is DEFINITELY a constitutional question that needs to be addressed here. By the loose definitions people are putting out there on this topic, the iraqi women who were raped by US soldiers, gave birth to American citizens. Panama is and was in the 930's, a sovereign nation, just like iraq. The question is not is mccain a citizen, it's is he a natural born citizen and eligible to become president.
Indeed, were jus sanguinis applicable to U.S. law, offspring born to Iraqi or Afghan women raped by U.S. soldiers may be considered "natural-born citizens of the United States America." Of course, since jus sanguinis does not apply to American common law, they are not.
Dave Nalle said:
Would you have attempted to make this lame argument when Barry Goldwater (also born outside the US) was running?
First of all, Barry Goldwater was born on US territory. John McCain was not. Please refer to the Hay-Bunau Varilla Treaty of 1903.
"Does Panama have votes in the electoral college?
Yes, actually. At the time the Canal Zone existed it had votes in the electoral college, just like Guam and Puerto Rico do now. In fact, US citizens living in embassies and on military bases around the world has representation just as if they lived in their home state. So that argument has no merit at all."
That is a damn lie! In order for a possession of the United States to have electoral votes, it must be a state (with the exception of the District of Columbia). Puerto Rico and Guam do not have electoral votes and neither did the Panama Canal Zone, which wasn't even a possession (being a lease), let alone a state.
I seemed to recall that Al Gore grew up in a Washington DC hotel where his father, a Senator before him, lived. So I checked. Al Gore the VP was born in Washington DC.
This argument never arose when Gore served as Clinton's VP (the VP must meet all the qualifications for the Presidency), nor during all the ruckus in 2000. I find it bizarre that anyone invokes it now.
What I do find incomprehensible is the situation described by the California poster whose mother had her credentials cancelled and her passport revoked despite having fulfilled all the requirements of law at the time she was born in South Africa to American parents. I'd love to see the back-and-forth on that case.
Posted By: John Turner (Libertarian)
Date: 2008-09-20 05:42:16
Mr. Werden you just alienated THIS Libertarian...I was born on the Island of Puerto Rico, a U.S. "Territory". Therefore according to you, I am not a naturalized American Citizen...and Yet my family who joined the military and fought for your freedom to say such bunk, according to your thesis are not American....Well this is where you are wrong...The 14th amendment sec. 1 says: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the JURISDICTION thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside....The key word is "and subject to the JURISDICTION" thereof...in other words Territories because they are a subject to the jurisdiction of the United States of America....Legal definition of Jurisdiction is:the power, right, or authority to interpret and apply the law : the limits or territory within which authority may be exercised ...This is the very definition of what the United States government does to its territories....Sir you are walking a fine line of misinterpreting the constitution...Reading your blog and some remarks posted on here can be interpreted as non-Libertarian but just another Political Hack so typical of the Republicans and Democrats...I will be voting for McCain because I am satisfied that the Libertarian candidates are less than adequate to run this nation, and I am sorely disappointed with the choices this time around...moreover the Libertarian convention was not very professionally done to spread the message I hold dear...Get off the this pedestrian argument that McCain is not American...He has done more positive for America than most of us have done in an entire life living here...
People born in the District of Columbia ARE born in the United States.
The Supreme Court in prior rulings has already interpreted the language of the constitutional requirement of the nation executive as "native-born".
Other "statutory" citizens of the United States born to U.S. citizen parents, such as those born in international waters in a U.S. registered vessel, or outside U.S. airspace in a U.S. registered aircraft are also NOT born IN the United States, and do not meet the constitutional requirement of Art II,1.
Acts of Congress - either recent or centuries-old, whether meaningless resolutions or legal statutes - also do not help McCain's wish for eligibility, as it is the Supreme Court to interpret the language of the Constitution.
While John McCain may very well have not been born in the United States; at least when he was asked for documentation, he didn't hide anything, so the ball is now rolled back to the Congress, the Supreme Court of the U.S.A., etc. However, Barack Hussein Obama has much to hide. You see, Philip J. Berg, former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania and lifelong Democrat filed a lawsuit against Obama in August, because there is much reason to believe that he was born in Kenya, as his paternal grandmother admitted. Interestingly enough, Obama said he was born in one hospital in Hawaii, while his sister said he was born in a different hospital in Hawaii. Since the lawsuit, Obama has yet to provide the documentation of his supposed birth in Hawaii to the court. But don't take my word for it, check out the video on this at www.obamacrimes.com.
It would seem that if every embassy and military installation (and military sea vessel for that matter) is considered US soil, then he was born on US soil. He would have a birth certificate issued by the Department of Defense of the United States of America like I do, and would have a certificate of American Citizen Born Abroad. This isn't really an argument in McCain's case. The real question is for children born of American Citizen's who may be professor's at foreign Universities or Business men working for Foreign Companies on foreign soil.
We were a military family for many years and two of our children were born in a US Military installation on foreign soil. The hospital filled out the certificate of live birth and signed all the paperwork for the child's citizenship, including the Report of Child Born Abroad of American Parent(s). The hospital then forwarded everything to the US embassy for us. The baby's passport, social security card and documents were received back in the mail a month later.
The Republican nominee, John McCain,was born at the U.S. military base in the Panama Canal Zone to U.S. parents. The Panama Canal Zone was not considered to be part of the United States,however federal law states: "Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States." The law that conferred this status took effect on August 4, 1937, one year after John McCain was born. the law was retroactive , resulting in McCain being declared a U.S. citizen.
So you are saying that you would rather vote for Obama who is in fact, A Muslim? His father was a Muslim, therefore he is a Muslim. According to Islamic law- once a Muslim, always a Muslim. Thats the man I want running America!!!!
Posted By: Anna Farnamas
Date: 2008-10-23 16:17:59
John McCain is not a U.S citizen and he is not qualified to run for President of the United States. He is a fraud. One born in Panama. I rather be smart and vote for Obama!
Posted By: Scott W. Trent Jr.
Date: 2008-10-31 03:43:59
American military bases, embassies, consular facilities, etc. are not constitutional territory of the United States"
Under international law we as a country insist on this being TRUE, we give other countries who have such in the U.S. the same rights, and so one might consider the entire ZONE to have been a military base and as such John McCain would be a U.S. citizen! End of question! But in any regards, the majority of americans are not going to nit pick, heck they will vote for Arnold S. when he decides to run, or at the least will fully support a change in the laws to allow even him to run. WE are LOOKING for a STRONG MAN to SECURE US, nothing else matters in the world of today. SECURITY over a citizens birth place will win every time!!!!!!!!!
Austin, you are mistaken. All sorts of people change religions/faiths during their lives. For instance, George Carlin. Raised a Catholic, made a choice to turn his back on it and became an Atheist. Barack's father, Barack Obama, Sr., turned his back on Islam and was an Atheist at the time Jr. was born. So, are you going to tell me and the world that you would've told George Carlin to his face that he was still a Catholic when he was still with us? That is what you are attempting to do now with Obama. Clearly you've never met Barack and have no clue about him. Additionally, Barack Obama never claimed Islam for himself...that has been researched and proven. Beside all that, what if he would be a Muslim? We have freedom of religion in the US, have you forgotten? The Constitution does not limit anyone from being President if they are something other than your professing religion. Please, don't tell us you're a Christian, because that would give those of us who seek to follow Christ a bad name. Being a Muslim does not make a person evil or stupid. It just means their religion is different than yours...please, again, don't say. There are many, many peaceful Muslims in the world that don't mind living alongside Christians or others. It's the extreme radical ones like Bin Laden, that are whacked. There are also plenty of 'Christians' that are just as militant and evil. For instance, the entire KKK. Oh, and remember this....Hitler considered himself a Christian. Please get your facts straight before communicating.
The text of the Art. II, Sec. 1 of the Constitution states, in part, that "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President . . ."
Yes, Lazarus, it does. The problem with your interpretation is you left out the qualifier for 'a Citizen of the United States'. That qualifier is 'at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution'. That means anyone that was a Citizen on the day the original Constitution was adopted. Otherwise, they have to be a 'Natural-born Citizen.' John McCain is a citizen because he was born on a US Military base to citizen parents. He is not a natural-born citizen (meaning - born IN the United States, not in a US territory, or on foreign soil), and thus presently disqualified.
However, it would be ok with me if the Constitution were amended to include those who have served in the military as qualified, other than standard 'naturalized citizens'.
There are 2 ways at birth, under US and international law, to recieve citizenship. Jus Soli (Law of the Soil) and Jus Sanguinis (Law of the Blood). If you are born in any one of the 50 United States or the District of Columbia, under Jus Soli you are automatically a natural-born citizen of the United States. If one of your parents is a US citizen at the time of your birth, under Jus Sanguinis you are a natural-born citizen. As long as you have one parent who is a US citizen, where you are born does not matter.
If you want to quote the first Naturalizaiton Act of 1790, then only "free white persons" of "good moral character" were eligible to be US citizens. A constituional system of government provides for the ability of laws to be changed. Be thankful for this.
What really scares me is the people that believe that crap are voting for Obama. The fact that 95% of convicts, if allowed to vote, would vote for Obama.
What really scares me are the people that believe that crap are voting for Obama. The fact that 95% of convicts, if allowed to vote, would vote for Obama. (correction)
OK Lazarus & Jester, In order for me to correctly answer this question I needed to find out if a military base is considered United States Soil;;;;;It Is. ..
therefore, I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomo... whoops,,, damn A.D.D.
The consititution cleary states that even if two people, a man and a woman, are on American soil even if both parents are illegal Aliens in the country, If the child is born here(US Soil) It is considered a United States Citizen. Now for an example, if a Canadian couple (man & woman) are in Florida to get outta the cold Canadian Climate if they have a baby there the baby has duo citizen ship. On his/or her 18 birthday , if that child wants to keep its American Citizenship, he,or she must file the appropriate documents to remain a Full American Citizen with equal rights of all other Americans, includeing running for President.
What a rediculous article! John McCain was born on American territory, to American parents. His right to run for President should be considered beyond dispute, if it weren't for the partisan bickering that always goes on in such cases.
I've also heard that Barack Obama was also questioned about his qualifications for the Presidency because he was born in Hawaii to a father who wasn't even an American citizen. Same kind of biased nitpicking as here!
Well I must say I was appauled on how people turn text too there own accord. My Niece was born in Germany not on a military Base but out in town. Too Two Parents that Are Naturalized Us Born Citizens. My Brother in law was Stationed there in the Army. My Sister went with him.
My Niece does not have Dual Citizenship. Only The USA. We are a very Tightly nit Family and Are Family is Very Military. Going back quite a few 100 years. Are you saying that My Niece could not Run for President because My Family was Defending the freedoms and the Constitution. My family bleeds red white and Blue. I wonder if All Military Familys would stand behind your beliefs or mine.
When founding fathers came to this country i.e. what would one think?
But hear is the answer: They came with Godly Love to be free men and their children too ! They came to be free of any ungodly rule ! Follow me hear: 1john 4:17-21 and many other Godly morals to be a free and strong country away from all the ungodly things that kept them slaves. Now look careful and you shall see a decaying United States. Evry one whom wants to be this or that and not answer to Gods loving rules is a part of a decaying knock down to the fore fathers whom founded this country.
Well My founding father 1635 was brought hear as a child and brought up with Gods loving words. Rhode Island. They were the puritan people whom excepted any one faiths or beliefs or color. The Mass, and and other 12 States were controlled by the King of England as to what the Church of Salem had harsh rules and punished people for their crimes simple or ?, and other faiths or beliefs were out ruled ! Color was not much a problem with the indians for these people except they didn't like a white getting close enough to a indian to mary or?. So when the settlers got tired of the french and English hurting them they finally got made and fought for their own rights and rules other countries must respect and obey these people. It is only Godly to Say it was a true intrust to keep our children walking in Gods love for them and pass it along down through the years to come. Not by force but gentle teaching Gods true love for them.
Now I was in service to my country and 2 of three of my children were born out of the United states. I remind you while I was in service to this Great nation and this is true. Their mother Another country she was born, Yet she was a Soldiers wife and latter she was Naturalized Citizen. Yet we had one child born in the U.S.A. prior to this, and then two Children in W.Germany after this.They were born on a military hospital as well I was abroad serving my country when this happened. So we have a reason why things can change as the world out their was threatning to stomp on American freedoms ! This is why we can have this rule to keep world peace. Now what is this we don't have the Godlyness rule in this nation to teach our children Gods love in the schools as this was how it started from its founding father's. Whom changed the rules ? People leaning outside of Gods loving rules.
So whats the differance between Kings and Qweens rules VS: Human freedoms that don't want to follow Gods rules?
Whats the differances between the two? Their is none when we can't follow after Gods love anymore their is no such Godly freedoms and one day its all gone from people freely sinning out of control and this is the founding fathers hope to have a homeland for such families whom felt the same way! Now look very dearly at what I just shared and then ask ones own self what is their reasoning to so greatly want to be a president to rule? Rule over what ? The rule is not to rule over people and powers but to inshure we the people remember the founding fathers why they did things the way they did and keep it intact so their children, and great fore children may have a real chance to know Gods love for them and have the right and powers to keep it for all their childrens too. It was England that forced the people of the colonies to have slaves ! Then some speacil few saw it was wrong to have slaves and out of it came the Civil war! That they too may be free. They too may worship Gods love for them too. Its all Gotten twisted and blow appart and people fuss over such powers and don't even know who God truly is to them. This is why we need to follow these certain rules of rearing our children up with Gods love and their having a chance to decide in time while they are little and growing and as well one day serve rightly for their country. Its all one big party now of people sinning and time is comming many will see whom God is and whom God is not and thus we now have a gate way for trojan wars to enter American as it has gotten into a wrongful part of Me Me Me and drinking wildly and having sex with any thing, .....etc... And thus we only can say for a few servivors that came true to know Gods great love and keep their lamps full of oil. Thus what country you ran away from and why you wont see much longer the freedom we have, had in this country but rather will be what you ran away from the other country or worse.Whom can understand these things and why ? Why can't most be happy to serve this nation like i did and be a soldier and know Gods love. I was born in this country and from its founding fathers yet I don't care to be in rule and power over such a loosing country due to those coming hear and wanting to disrupt its true reasoning. Its hard enough watching everyone tear it apart with their sin's they bring on this country or we had to go out and save the world from two great powers over ruling them and because they failed to follow Gods love they failed the United States too. We paid a dear price for such!
Some people do come hear with good intentions as I have met some and this is true. Some say that too they want it too and then they change their minds and thus do what they want to disobey Gods love for them too and wipe it all over any one they can: their children too and any one whom wants too spread it around the sinful nature of mankind without Gods love. So what free dome we once had is vastly loosing it ! Greed , lust, drunkenness, so on so fourth. Sadly to say Idol worship too the old Gentile rules God's. They make their own Gods to please their own foolish choices mixing it how they want Gods love to be painted for them own selves to be accepted and thus become their own Gods. This is true. I would first be conserned about getting things right with Gods love 1John 4:17-221 Holy Bible.) Get to know Gods love first before you want to rule as president or such things. That is a dire need to know our creator and our true reason for being hear and choices where we go from hear after this life and why. Once one follows Gods love then they will walk in the 9 fruits and show others with Gods real love and not mixed with their confused selves together.
Galatians 5:22-26 Holy Scriptures.) Their fore we would remain a free country if we do these things and not the needs for so many laws and Government. It says so in verse 22. HELO ? Time is running out ! and so is the oil for any lamps to be filled with oil.
I am finished. God Bless America its true reasoning and wake up every one that is blind to see. Amen............... May God move all the souls to hear these truths. I do believe that any child born by parents serving overseas of good faith to their country that their child was born off base should be an exception to the policy taking a naturalization to be a american citizen is rightful. I feel for many whom want the freedom we have but where are the Jobs to accommodate their freedom to have a chance today? We are already busting at the seams and in so much disarray. We just were vulnerable and saw what a trojan horse warfare did to enter our country while it was partying and caused so much innocents to be lost and thus one of americas First family Honor Roll President Bush did indeed go after them as the CiC ! To keep them out of this country. May God Bless American and its We The People And Godly love we share with those whom May or may not agree.
Americas First Family 1635+
Rev. & Sgt. Thomas Dungan R.I.
M.L.D. Ret, U.S.A.
P.S. God Bless American & Our Sons & Daughters Out their fighting the war on terror that brought the Trojan war to the U.S.A. & The rest of the World. I do feel for many but we are already busting at the seams and in dire breakdown as it is sense the trojan horse entered in after every one that party and went to sleep each day.Color is never a problem with me and if I disagree with the unGodly in our country hear is the prejudice we take to God Abba Father we need it changed: Never the less My/our will, but thine will be done on earth as it is in Heaven Amen...... Thats leaving the powers and authority in Gods hands.Forgive me as I am not a great writer and this was a long sharing :)
I have to say I strongly disagree. I myself was born in the Panama Canal Zone to American-born parents. My father was born in Hawaii while it was still a territory of the United States, not a state. If he was not a citizen, then why was he subject to the draft in World War II? He was, and he served proudly and was awarded the bronze star. My mother, born in Maine, also served during that war. My father served during the Korean War. He was awarded the purple heart during both wars and retired in 1964. I was born in the Canal Zone, and according to an act of Congress, I am a natural-born citizen of the United States. The Constitution says that only natural-born citizens may become President, not naturalized citizens. I have never been a citizen of another country; neither has John McCain, nor was my father. To suggest that children of service members who are born overseas while their parents are serving their country is a slap in the face to all those who sacrifice so much. Whether one agrees with American intervention in world affairs, those honorable men and women and their families should not be relegated to second-class citizen status.
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Section 1403 - Persons born in the Canal Zone or Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904