Topic: About the Chart
Nolan Chart: Balanced? Some interesting data about columnists on this siteby Logical Premise
(Statist)
Tuesday, January 29, 2008
Just going by the information under the "columns" on the site, I decided to do a bit of checking.
It turns out that we have roughly 160 authors here. 90% of them , over 140, are Libertarian. We have 6 conservatives, 7 centrists, 5 liberals, 6 centrists, and a couple of statists,
Is this lopsidedness a symptom of exposure? Not so, according to the advertising figures our readership is almost half a million unique visitors.
I have no idea what number of those Libertarians are active, or for that matter what numbers of the other parties are active. However, it's unlikely that you are going to get very much exposure beyond that of other Libertarians without authors to bring in other mindsets.
Certainly no one that writes here believes anything that Libertarians believe in. I, for one, despite 8 years of military service and loving my country, would leave this country at once if Ron Paul became president, because I do not believe in anything he stands for and I that lassez-faire and "rugged individualism" is what lead to many of the problems in this country in the first place. But that's me.
Ideally, you would want a wide range of people to read this site. Having Libertarians read Libertarian articles doesn't go a whole lot of good. I've passed the website link to about a dozen people, but all of them pretty much ended up telling me it wasn't worth reading through the morasses of incoherently written ravings to find the "good stuff" that I have found here.
If the site is intended primarly as a Libertarian resource, then perhaps it should be stated as such. If the majority of authors just happen to be Libertarian and the numbers have grown since it's only exposed to them, then the value of the message is blunted since it will never reach a "receptive" audience.
If, on the other hand, the intent was for it to be balanced, then more of an effort needs to be made in attracting other authors, and certainly there needs to be less of an attempt by Libertarians on this site to simply attack any article that doesn't line up with their own beliefs. You won't attract many new writers that way.
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2008 Logical Premise, all rights reserved.
Published: Tuesday, January 29, 2008
Last modified: Tuesday, January 29, 2008
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How can you not believe in anything Ron Paul stands for? He stands for freedom, personal liberty and the Constitution. Those are the principles on which our country was founded.
Posted By: patrick henry
Date: 2008-01-29 13:16:16
I agree that LIBERTARIAN views dominate this web site. However, most of us LIBERTARIANS were already here or our numbers have been increased do to the largely intelligent, learned people who write here. You are more than welcome to express your opinion, yet you need to be prepared to defend your views. LIBERTARIANS believe in the constitution and LIBERTY. OBTW these are the same ideals and document that founded this country. So passing off anyother idea will generally not work on this educated population. There may be a forum in socialist Europe that might have more people with your views. LIBERTARIANS welcome your views so we can shed light upon your misguided thought. If you truly have other than LIBERTARIAN thoughts great, express them freely, just be ready for a counter attack on your attack of the REPUBLIC
OBTW when you got out of the military did your oath of office expire? Mine did not! I still swear to uphold, support and defend the constitution and our REPUBLIC from all enemies bothe foriegn and domestic. That is what Dr. Paul stands for, so if he does in fact get elected I look forward to your departure from OUR REPUBLIC, just make sure that you go through the legal immigration procedures or you might get sent back to us.
""If ye love wealth better than LIBERTY, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of FREEDOM, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity ever forget you were our countrymen"-Sam Adams
LIBERTY or DEATH
Your article got my "Thumbs Up" today because you've pointed out a very interesting problem - and the comments already validate what you've said!
I know that I certainly need exposure to contrary viewpoints, and I would also like to reach a wider audience with my flawlessly logical presentations.... (now a long pause to remove tongue from cheek....)
However, you've gone a bit over the top yourself, haven't you? "Certainly no one that writes here believes anything that Libertarians believe in." ??? Come on, get real!
Nevertheless, you've done Nolan Chart a service in pointing out the imbalance. How about helping to balance the site now by encouraging other good writers who see the world from non-libertarian perspectives to throw their hat into the ring?
We should start a Chip-in to buy this guy his ticket overseas if Ron Paul becomes president. What a moonbat. Columnists have the right to speak their political opinion regardless of bent. This is no cable news. Obviously this guy is upset that it's not anti-libertarian. He must prefer FOX News' approach to fair and balanced news.
Posted By: Jeff Smathers
Date: 2008-01-29 13:41:11
It is odd that most people who write columns like this have such a limiting view of what would really happen if Ron Paul were elected.
First, there is a huge amount of government inertia that would likely take many years of congressional reform and debate to turn around all the venues of corruption and graft.
Second, he is a constitutionalist and knows that his power as president is limited and would not envoke the many many levels of bastardised executive orders ala Mcdonalds Drive through.
No other candidate has a intent nor shown that they could or would throw out a rational 'anchor' grounded in our constitution. Ron Paul is not going to be able to in one term or even two terms, be able to 'fix' all issues, rather he will be what the Executive branch should be...A limiting of powers from the Congressional and Judicial that are allowing the soverignty of our nation to be purchased and whored by international and national companies for the appeasing for a profitable quarter.
I chip in my thumbs up for much the same reason as creator, this is something many writers on this site are concerned with. A key factor I disagree with is the 140 libertarian writers. Granted, there very well can be 140 labeled libertarians based on results from the Nolan Chart but there are a wide variety of variations even within the libertarian label. Many of us are not lock step into the pure libertarian philosophy. We may well lean liberal, centrist, or (as I do) conservative. The challenge we have is when a reader comes here and sees libertarian their assumptions may prove as narrow as your comments lead me to believe you view the label or the person behind the label.
Posted By: Dee Ann Guzman
Date: 2008-01-29 13:43:47
Every person who comes here and applies to be a writer takes the survey that classifies them according to their political ideology, and are placed on the Nolan Chart according to their beliefs. It is not the fault of the website that most of those people are rated as libertarians. Certainly many of us, contrary to your statement, are very much libertarian in our political ideology. We shall sincerely miss you when you leave the country. Be sure and post and tell us all about your new chosen homeland. Go Ron Paul!!!
Interesting. Despite 7 years in the military and loving this country and the constitution that it is supposed to be goverened by, I have considered leaving it if Ron Paul IS NOT elected.
Frankly, I am sick of the media deciding the candidates and the political direction of this country, and supporters of the constitution and those that believe in the idea of less government intrusion into every aspect of our lives constantly marginalized and ridiculed.
So while I certainly hope that Dr Paul is elected and we lose a statist such as yourself, I am prepared for the worse and have already purchased a home in a 3rd world country (where the politicians are honestly corrupt).
I'm a U.S. Army Veteran and consider RP the only viable candidate to lead this country and return it back to a Constitutional Republic. I would hope that every red-blooded american would want that.
The reality of the situation is that what you or I think is irrelevant. If everyone I show this site to dismisses it as "Ron Paul nutjobs", then your message is not spreading.
I must respectufully disagree with those of you who think Ron Paul is best for this country, which you of course have every right to feel and write about. My point, since Abe cannot make any points without ad hominems and insults, is that without other viewpoints, and without believers in those other viewpoints being exposed to your viewpoints and you to theirs, you don't have a "column". You have a group of people saying what everyone here already believes and then patting each other on the back.
Maybe that's what was intended. I was simply pointing out the massive discrepancy in numbers, and that anyone who writes here and is against Libertarian ideas is so firmly set in their beliefs that exposure to your so - called revolution won't sway them one iota.
This site is temporarily a Ron Paul worship site, when he loses there will be more issues discussed. As you can see when I write against religion, I get a bunch of angry people. I am not trying to be liked and niether are you. So my thumbs up to you for pointing out the obvious.
Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2008-01-29 15:23:07
As the creator of this website, I share your concern. However, I would also point out that when we first started, nearly all of our traffic came from libertarians. That number is now down to roughly 80% (according to the total number of times the survey has been taken by readers, not just columnists). So while we have a long way to go, we're heading in the right direction.
By the way, most people who score "libertarian" are not members of the Libertarian Party, just as people who score "conservative" are not necessarily members of the Republican Party, etc. In fact, roughly 40% of the population do not affiliate with any party. Yet, they could end up on any part of the chart if/when they took the survey.
I always welcome constructive ideas on how to provide more balance on the website. It's easy to criticize this problem, but it's much harder to solve it. I'm pretty sure it started out libertarian because it was started by a libertarian using a libertarian concept. But that doesn't mean it always has to maintain libertarian dominance.
The most constructive solution I've heard so far wasn't terribly constructive. It was to ditch the whole Nolan Chart idea, as if the chart itself were the problem. Getting rid of the website won't solve anything. Neither will getting rid of the rating system or getting rid of the graphic of the chart solve anything. So I'm really waiting to hear the first constructive suggestion on how to solve this problem.
Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2008-01-29 15:50:26
For those who are curious about the 80% figure I cited, here are the number of people who have scored in the various camps on the Nolan Chart survey as taken by interested readers (not just columnists):
The reason for the lopsidedness is simply that the columnists are self-selected. That's often tends to skew the balance: take any phone-in or internet poll on who's the best Republican candidate, for instance. 8)
Very good point. You have strongly pointed out that you hold a different opinion, and that we exist in a world with a plurality of opinions. Libertarians, Ron Paul supporters (myself included), etc also do tend to preach to the converted. We should be more effective and expand the markets where we spread the message. Test: if you support Ron Paul; do you tend to search for "Ron Paul"; do you read (not commenting) other (non-Ron Paul) forums - have we started to group think? do you have an idea blackout / embargo on other candidates? are you listening to people or just "bible bashing" them with the Ron Paul and the constitution?
"If, on the other hand, the intent was for it to be balanced, then more of an effort needs to be made in attracting other authors, and certainly there needs to be less of an attempt by Libertarians on this site to simply attack any article that doesn't line up with their own beliefs. You won't attract many new writers that way."
If the author is encountering a large number of negative reactions to his articles from this site's overwhelmingly libertarian-minded readers, and that was what prompted him to make the above observation, then he needs to:
(a) Learn to take the heat for his unpopular (among the current readership) views and keep refining them in future articles based off of what constructive criticism he might actually receive. Doing so may eventually win some people over to his way of thinking. Perceiving any criticism of one's positions as an "attack" is to invoke the language of victimhood which is ill-suited for rigorous debate.
(b) Try to find a more receptive audience for his views elsewhere or try to personally recruit more writers or readers who are in agreement with him to this web site to even things out a bit.
Regarding the comments of Walt Thiessen above, I am not sure I see the "problem" that needs to be fixed exactly.
Is the problem that this site was originally intended to attract people from the entire political spectrum, but it has mostly attracted the libertarian-minded instead? If so, the only way you could correct that balance would be to set a fixed number of writers under each "quadrant" of the political diamond. Even then, that does not mean the readership will actually change accordingly. Because of the huge number of libertarian articles on NolanChart.com, it is largely perceived as a "libertarian site" such as LewRockwell.com or Mises.org.
If it is the rather passionate criticisms that non-libertarian articles are receiving from readers that is keeping non-libertarian authors from joining the site, then the only way to deal with that might be to block commenting for the time being. However, I think that the ability to provide feedback (and sometimes correction) to articles posted is one of the attractive features of this site, so I would hate to see it go away.
Libertarian (vs. statist) philosophy is spreading online like wildfire these days, so that portion of the site's authorship and readership is sure to grow. It might just be that no web site can equal serve the needs of people from all sides of the political spectrum, because the philosophical differences involved are just too great; one side or the other will eventually dominate the discussion.
Posted By: Patriot Henry
Date: 2008-02-08 20:35:46
"I, for one, despite 8 years of military service and loving my country, would leave this country at once if Ron Paul became president, because I do not believe in anything he stands for and I that lassez-faire and "rugged individualism" is what lead to many of the problems in this country in the first place. But that's me."
So, let me see if I understand this. Although you love your country, if a particular politician you don't like is elected because he promises to bring more liberty, you will exercise your right of liberty to leave the nation? Since you oppose "rugged individualism", shouldn't you cower under your bed in America afraid of Dr. No instead undertaking the challenge of moving abroad? And since you are still here, that must mean you find the current collection of career mobsters to be preferable to Ron Paul.
Fascinating - tell us more about your philosphy please.
Posted By: Christian Prophet
Date: 2008-02-16 19:36:48
Actually, I think the Nolan Chart is based on incorrect premises and is worthless as a definitive indicator of real-life political categories. That said, the usual tests which help people place themselves on the Nolan Chart seem like the infamous push polls which attempt to direct people into categories. The answers are made to sound relatively appealing or non-appealing, assuring the majority of people will end up in one category.
For example, I very much prefer hanging out in a room full of conservatives as opposed to a room full of libertarians or liberals. I feel more comfortable with conservatives and enjoy thinking of myself as a conservative. Yet answering the limited and non-exclusive questions on this site, I came out as a libertarian. This should not have been a surprise to me, due to the nature of the questions.
Posted By: patrick henry
Date: 2008-03-05 10:10:01
LP
The deeper thing is that you constantly say that LIBERTARIAN methods of thinking are not in step with the rest of society, then why is it that so many people here advocate LIBERTARIAN thinking? First we are the crazy minority then we are the crazy majority. Choice please? Again more doublethink.
As far as Change goes, dont change a thing Walt! Good job and thanks.
I agree with you that we need to cover the entire political spectrum on this site, and I think that a large number, if not a majority, of the other libertarians on the site agree with me. All camps in a political debate need to communicate with each other. That is what allows both to find areas of agreement and re-examine our positions, and also to sharpen out arguments. I think the redesign of the front page will help people realize that, while libertarians are in the majority on the site, other viewpoints can not only be freely expressed but are welcome. But how do you suggest we can best convey this idea to people with other viewpoints? I take it you are sharing what you are doing here with others, since you have conveyed their complaints about the site. But can you also convey to them the idea that we want them here sharing their views?
There are a lot of people here who don't want to hear "other views" and see anything opposing what they say as an excuse to insult , bash, or conflate you to a sheep/idiot/fascist/communist.
It's very difficult to convince people that they are welcome to share views if the act of sharing the views gets them bashed. It is difficult to convince people that their ideas have "value" if basically you're told point blank that if you disagree you are a traitor to the country.
Of course, the larger point -- that dogmatic rigid thinking fails to translate into anything like popular success -- should have been pounded into Libertarian heads by the SAVAGE BEATING Ron Paul recieved in his own state of Texas in terms of who voted for who .. but I have no doubt there's already someone who is saying it's "vote fraud" and to debate why he lost is to betray Liberty, Freedom, Apple Pie, Songbirds....
Posted By: patrick henry
Date: 2008-03-06 14:43:49
58% of the delegates in TX now I call that a thrashing, who cares about the primary vote straw poll, its all about the delegates. But when the state controls the media what you get is what you got.
Ah ... temper, lad. I really am a Libertarian, card carrying since the beginning, and I understand your frustration. If you are disturbed by your comment messages you may take heart from the notion that you have a biased sample of your readers. Libertarians, conservatives, statists or whatever, cranks seem always to have the time to dash off a quick derogatory and emotional comment. Reasoned response takes longer and requires thought. I, for one, am quite happy that you are a prolific commentator on Nolan Chart. On the Internet, at this early stage in its evolution, the quality of commentary rarely rises much above that of libel and I think Nolan Chart has the potential to attract superior analysis ... given time. I hope that the site will evolve as a host for reasoned debate and if it does I expect that the interesting commentary will be columnist to columnist rather than from public responses to columns.
The lopsided weighting of the readers of Nolan Chart is due, almost certainly, to the Ron Paul campaign. I never heard of Nolan Chart until I set up a Google alert for "Ron Paul."
After reading some of the columns I decided to stick around and perhaps contribute here and there myself, as time permits, because I like the concept. Your writing is some of the best on the site, blog posts are a pestilence and there is a need for quality debate. I hope it will be here on this site and I look forward to crossing swords with articulate opponents - perhaps with you. Stick around bud, I think this joint is steadily drawing a classier crowd.
Since you wrote this, the site has tried to create more balance by adopting the five-menus format. Of course that biases things against individual libertarian writers. While it's exceedingly hard for all but a few libertarian articles to make it onto the top 10 for that quadrant, other writers enjoy dominance of their respective charts. You, for example, hold down four of the top five positions on the statist chart, one of them being held by this three-month-old article. And that's not to mention hybrids - one writer regularly holds three of the top 5 articles on both the liberal and centrist charts, for the same articles every week.
Things may indeed look biased in favor of 'libertarian writers' if you look on them as a collective. However, if you look on them as individual writers, competing for readership with each other, then it's more true to say that the bias is against them.
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