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Published: Friday, March 6, 2009
Last modified: Friday, March 6, 2009
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Reader Comments:
Posted By: Wingnut
Date: 2009-03-06 17:15:30
Mr Nolan, you know darned well that capitalism is a pyramid scheme, and you know that pyramid schemes are rat-racing structures. Rat-racing structures, just like childhood pyramids and "pig piles"... always get top-heavy and collapse... crushing the folks on the bottom. You see the pyramid scheme symbol on the back of the USA dollar. You see the parents doing policy reversal from share share share... to fight fight fight when kids turn 18. You know perfectly-well that capitalism is a circular system... the more one profits, the more the cost of living.
So why do you insist on trying to pedal the free marketeers pyramid scheme at us... as a moral and/or intelligent supply/survival system? Why? Abolish economies and ownership NOW. You know why it needs to happen. Servitude (working FOR instead of WITH) should have been illegal in the USA long ago. Lets rid the planet of monetary discrimination right here and right now, yes? Lets do it. Cease and desist order on capitalism, immediately. Lets go. Lets level things. Pyramids always collapse... so lets help nature along a bit. Own up to pyramiding, readers. The USA is "great" in only one way... monetarily. In all other measurement criteria, we are being seriously held-back by inequality and servitude. Remove price tags from everything, put the luxuries in the repositories for all to share, just the the USA military, and do moneyless basic supplies, equally, ownerlessly, with freely-available requisition forms... just like the USA military suupply system and public library system. Capitalism is a disgusting system, and that's no hogwash.
Larry "Wingnut" Wendlandt
MaStars - Mothers Against Stuff That Ain't Right
(anti-capitalism-ists)
Bessemer MI USA
Posted By: Jahfre Fire Eater
Date: 2009-03-06 20:14:02
Hi David,
Oh good, another group for libertarians to sign up with. That ought to help. NOT! I'm sure the online libertarian choir will enjoy it though, especially if this new group comes up with catchy slogans to chant on the street corners of America.
I agree with your goals. Personally, I would have joined the LP back in the 80s if this had been their central theme. I think the LP should exist purely as a promotional vehicle for the principles of liberty and that no candidates should ever be part of the LP picture. Candidates in the GOP and Democrat party should be endorsed by the LP when they represent LP ideals. LP should never actually run a candidate for any office. Politics merely dilutes the message, wastes money and sets the membership up for perpetual disappointment. All the things that it has been doing since the party founding along with all the results such tactics deserve.
I simply see no value in shuffling the current ineffective set of evangelical LP members from one new group to another. I'd guess online libertarians are the herd-joiningist segment of our society already. That bit of schizophrenia is the self-limiting flaw that the LP just can't shake; its members can't do anything effective as individuals but must first join a herd, then be ineffective still. Their most common trait is a strong affinity for self-marginalization.
If you want to save the LP, and apparently you do, for some reason that isn't apparent at all, I suggest finding and promoting incentives for new members to join. Maybe a message and programs aimed at promoting the principles you mentioned is the magic you need. I'd start with a strong message for individuals to practice shunning rather than constantly embracing the herd mentality and then getting out in their communities to start participating in their local politics.
The continuous strategy of trying to organize the current membership in just the right way into just the right herd with the ridiculous expectation that this new herd-name will suddenly cause the party to mature from the political sandbox into an effective party capable of sustaining a membership large enough to push libertarian candidates up through the pipeline from local communities to state offices to national offices does not work, David.
Maybe you should get together an build a cardboard clubhouse next to the sandbox. Be sure to paint the name of your new group on the door so everyone knows what herd is responsible for the new clubhouse.
-Jahfre Fire Eater
Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2009-03-07 01:46:44
I agree that current LP leadership is abandoning party principles. Among other things, they've abandoned the non-aggression principle as an educational principle. I think that's a huge mistake. The LP's abandonment of principles isn't a new phenomenon. It's been going on for a number of years, and it keeps getting worse. It's a major reason why I refused to renew my membership this year. I'm still a libertarian, but I'm done with the Libertarians.
I know Donny Ferguson. He's a good guy, and his heart is in the right place. In other contexts, I think he would be right to want to find out what the voters are thinking. However, in this case he's wrong. There is absolutely no doubt about what they're thinking. They're overwhelmingly concerned with the economy. Anyone who doesn't get that simply isn't paying attention. The LP doesn't need to put a poll in the field to find that out.
There is some wisdom in what he says about doing "what voters agree on." However, that doesn't mean that the LP should not speak out from a strong, principled perspective within the current economic context. This is a time when LP principles can actually gain traction simply because they are so timely, as you point out.
It should also be noted that LP leadership have put out some messages against what the government has been doing, Unfortunately, these messages have been largely aimed at the choir rather than at the media and the masses. That's a classic case of underselling.
We are living in a time when education of the masses regarding libertarian principles is essential. Most people, for example, including many libertarians, simply do not understand that our entire money supply is debt-based and depends 100% upon sending the nation deeper into debt in order to create "prosperity" (as the Fed calls it). When we pay off debt (or when debt defaults) it sends the nation into recession. When individuals finally understand this concept, I've found that it's an epiphany for them. Yet how many people truly understand it? Certanly less than 1/10 of 1% of the population.
I am now committed to education outside of the LP. To those who might say I have abandoned the LP, I would counter that the LP has abandoned me, they have abandoned principle, and thereby they have abandoned America.
Posted By: The Return of Blacklisted Spencer J
Date: 2009-03-07 17:50:47
Still pushing the same boulder up the hill, Nolan? Your vision is one of the past and constrained to the same partisan logic of the two major parties you've protested for over 30 years. But now, when we need liberty more than ever, radicals are stepping up their rhetoric. Go ahead. Take over the LP. It has been my wish someone would kill this party; it's been rotting for a while. And who better to do it than the one who started it all?
We will find a newer brand, one founded on a realistic platform that recognizes you CAN be a purist libertarian and not get caught up in spouting "anti-populist" rhetoric to the masses. This new party will be able to educate as well as get elected once the complete destruction of the LP takes place. All this crippled institution has done is dry up resources. May this trend accelerate: go ahead, fragment your base more.
Posted By: Jim Davidson
Date: 2009-03-07 18:10:52
Like many people who joined the Libertarian Party in the 1980s, I've been very disappointed, lately. I'll stop by your site and see what you've got in mind.
Whatever you choose to do with the December 11 Group ought to be better than leaving the LP to continue on its current path.
Posted By: Towlie Roberts
Date: 2009-03-07 23:25:35
Yessssss. Because "subsidizing" any organization, even if it's the LP, is fine by normal, self-respecting, libertarians. I agree with Spencer.
Posted By: Scott Bieser
Date: 2009-03-09 01:34:46
The Libertarian Party seemed like a good idea at the time of its founding, and I thought it was a good idea when I joined back in 1978.
But I think subsequent events, from the Party's abandonment of the Pledge to the nomination of Barr, not to mention its continued lack of relevance after 37 years, have shown that a political party is the wrong vehicle for doing the first thing that needs to be done, and that is educating as many people as possible as to the beauty, the benefits, and the necessity of liberty.
If this December 11 group is to be something promoting the educational and agitational strategies we need, great. But if it's just a vehicle for "reforming" the LP, fuggedaboudit. We don't need to waste another couple decades fighting the same stupid battles.
Posted By: Kevin Tuma
Date: 2009-03-09 08:36:55
Please consider outreach to the Ron Paul Revolution. Ron Paul followers are numerous, energetic, principled, and fiercely nonconformist. They are they complete antithesis of the Bob Barr crowd and the 'GOP-Lite' ear-ticklers who took over the LP last year.
Paulians would make perfect Libertarian Party activists. Many, like myself, reject the 'GOP infiltration' concept promoted by the C4L.
I invite you, Mr. Nolan to post on the Daily Paul and Ron Paul Forums, and make your appeal directly to the people.
Posted By: Geoffrey L.
Date: 2009-03-09 12:07:37
Dear Sir,I read your commentary with great regret. As one of the so called "founding fathers" of the LP movement, we look to you and your USLP with great adoration at the progress its made over the years. It has aspired others, like us at the UKLP to go about change as well.Yet you appear no longer to believe in a need for a "Political Party" which, forgive me for saying, sole purpose should be to elect officials to office to create the change desired. For that is how a democratic system works. You can change things like the students in Iran during the Revolution either by force; or you can create change by peaceful means.In fact, reading your own bylaws which we of course (and many other Libertarian party groups throughout the world) copied when forming our own articles, is one of your purposes:ARTICLE 3: PURPOSES - moving public policy in a libertarian direction by building a political party that elects Libertarians to public office;Do you no longer agree sir that your USLP should be doing what you yourself founded the party to do?How should we and the many, many other LP's around the world (and perhaps in your own states) deal with such a notion? How should the many thousands of elected Libertarians in the world react? Should they quit? After all, you argue perhaps that they should not have ran for office in the first place?How do you see going about making change? Through simply educating people on our principles? I believe the whole world reads your US Decoration of Independence, even we Brits must past exams on its' contents. Thus, we are educated. A lot of good that does in the socialistic society I live in. Sir, if you do not like your system, do like us and change it. One of the best ways to educate is to be heard. One of the best ways to be heard is to participate in the debate by either running for a public position or serving in one.Good day,Geoffrey L.UKLP
Posted By: Randall
Date: 2009-03-10 11:38:55
The dog-eat-dog Social Darwinistic pure meritorcracy (it never would be)of libertarianism leaves me cold. The Ayn Rand psychopathology of greed is good isn't and hasn't been a thealthy thing for us. We have been living in Libertarian times, in the business realm anyway, by the Repubs and Dems for the past 28 years and it still may go on even now. The main difference was that the corporations got bailed out by our tax payer money when their pyramid schemes failed. If the Libs took over there would be no regulation, no pollution laws, no protections what so ever unless you can afford to bring them to court. Regulation is natural and normal. If your cells functioned that way you and I would all die from rampant cancers in a very short time.
We need a balance of individual liberty and liberty of the group as well. A living wage or stipen to start and then any more you earn are for yourself and taxes, on a limited scale. Maybe we can go back to using just the tariff as a way of financing our gov't. We need to get out of the world storm trooper mindset we have had since 1898. When you trade with all countries you are not isolationist.
We need some Mutual Aid Anarchism of Marx and Kropotkin not Wall Street button down greed is good of Libertarians.
Posted By: Blacklisted Spencer J
Date: 2009-03-11 04:51:55
Randall:
I intended to dispute your childish claims for a second, but as you haven't taken a minute of your sad life to actually research Rand ian Objectivism OR libertarianism (two very different things, actually, you sad, sad shit), doing your work for you is not acceptable. NOW THAT is a very consistent principle with libertarianism. If you actually read, you would find that half of what you spout is wrong. And Marxist slavery is not the solution either.
Posted By: Ben Kalafut
Date: 2009-03-20 02:57:14
Every time "purist" libertarians--and I hate to use the term because it implies concessions I'm not making--get their panties in a bunch over someone in the LP--either a staffer or a high-profile candidate--not speaking in the stale vocabulary of obsolete 1971 libertarianism, is a group started? Is there one group for indignant purity-testers per purity-tester? Are there more than one?
Yep, let's reclaim the LP for "hard core" types who have no interest in growing the party or advancing the libertarian cause. To heck with those "big tent" libertarians, with subtle thought about policy, with recognition that libertarianism is a policy direction and not "a philosophy", and with libertarian thinkers from Nozick on out. Cato Institute? What's that? Reason? Is that like The Freeman? We don't need modern libertarianism, we don't need Big Tent pluralism, we've got mechanistic "Principles" (TM) and our principles tell us that Donny Ferguson is suspiciously mainstream. Shake 'em again and they say "Concentrate and ask again". One more time: "Better not tell you now." Drat!
Far better things to do with one's time, like outwardly directed activism, or attempting to build a party for all libertarians. A rest home for Museum Libertarians and folks suffering the after-effects of drinking "taxation is theft" and "all rights are property rights" Kool-Aid isn't going to elect candidates or be enough of a threat to move the other parties in the libertarian direction. Breaking out the pitchforks and torches whenever anyone dares to call himself libertarian and at the same time recommend meeting the voter halfway isn't productive.
Then again, spreading blatant lies about the Platform Committee's recommendation at the last convention, or calling for the Reform Caucus--several hundred of us with a great deal of sweat equity in the LP--to go join the Republicans at what was supposed to be an elder-statesman speech wasn't productive, either.
I'm starting to think there are two David F. Nolans. One speaks out in favor of purges and "purism" at the national level--recently as a ringleader of Restore 04, and now this. The other is the pleasantly pragmatist chairman of the Pima County Libertarian Party , who's been cheerleading the sort of community involvement needed to build political capital and an activist base that does more than talk to itself. I'd like to see Good Twin Nolan give Evil Twin Nolan the redheaded-stepchild beating he deserves, or at least ask very nicely that Evil Twin go join the organization called the "Boston Tea Party" that is serving nicely as flypaper for the small-party set.
Posted By: Dale Husband
Date: 2009-05-03 18:05:45
If you want the Libertarian Party you founded to remain a Third Party forever, keep it a hard-line dogmatic system. If you want that party to ever win national elections and seriously challenge both the Democrats and Republicans, you must open it up to diverse views. Without compromise and mutual tolerance, you will always fail. The Republicans themselves are showing this, as they continue to fall. Do not make their mistake! Communist hard-liners, ignoring the needs and wants of their peoples for decades, destroyed the credibility of Communism forever. Calling yourselves the party of principle is admirable, but being open to new ideas and serving the people rather than an ideology are also principles to be admired.
Posted By: dann
Date: 2009-08-06 09:01:00
david, i agree. how do i become a member of the december 11 group?