Reader Comments:

Posted By: Melanie
Date: 2008-06-13 22:58:49

I want you to know you are not alone, but so happens to be that the tables are turned in my situation in a way. My ex accused my husband of sexual abuse but they accused me of failing to protect her. I had to do a psychosexual test, psychological, take none offending parenting classes and do therapy, as if I had done something. DCF did not look into my claim about the previous year my ex took me to court for custody and didn't succeed, then a month before the allegations came out, he asked me, if he could take our daughter possibly out of state or somewhere in north Florida to live. I do understand that this kind of situation happens more to men than women, though it was my husband (daughter's step-father) who was accused. Under the circumstances and the history between my ex and I, plus no medical evidence, conflicting stories, and other very important issues, I couldn't possibly not stand by my husband@ I knew who was behind this from the beginning.

I am a good mother and my ex knows that, therefore, he couldn't possibly prove me as an unfit mother? So how else do you get custody? You make false claims by using the Department of Children and Family Services. This was a Malicious intent to gain custody of my daughter by using the system, they only believe one side and do not investigate properly or thoroughly! Because I didn't believe my daughter or wouldn't divorce my husband the State said that I failed to protect my daughter! They threatened for over a year to remove my other children from my care. They intimidated and humilated me and my family. The State of Florida has failed my to protect my daughter by not doing a thorough and proper investigation. They have done everything they can to destroy my family. My husband had to leave our home, leaving our 1 year old (now 3). He still has not been able to return home. We have been living in two seperate homes since 2006, and our son has been forced to go to two different homes, which was very difficult for the first year. He loves his daddy and mommy so much and doesn't understand. We try to do things as much as possible as a family to try and make things seem somewhat normal.

I haven't seen my daughter in over a year. DCF has done nothing about this. My ex and his wife have allienated her and brainwashed her. My daughter now says she doesn't ever want to see me again!

My family has been emotionally, mentally, physically and financially tormented by these false allegations.

I have contacted the Governor of Florida's office, and am in the process of writting a story about my experience. I will mail a copy out to as many Congressman, State Reps, Governors, Attorney/Inspector General's Office in the United States.

False Allegations need to stop and the accusing party needs to be help accountable criminally and financially,  for making the false claim. I am determined to make a difference, no matter how long it takes me! 

I love and miss my daughter so very much. I know that she doesn't understand the seriousness of the allegations, but I am still her mother and am still her advocate.

The only advice I can give anyone is don't give up,  have faith in God and know what comes around goes around. May not happen sooner than we would like but eventually it will.

Thank you for allowing me to share just a brief comment about my experience.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all. Keep the faith.

 

 

 

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-06-25 03:17:42

Melanie, I read your story and I am so sorry. Your husband is lucky that you stood by his side. I was falsly accusd and I wasnt as lucky How old is your daughter ? If you dont mind me asking. Things do change and time does heal all wounds. someday she will look you up so make sure that she can always find you. I paid the lawyers paid the Gardian paid the evaluators got tested by the evaluators I almost ended up in jail and the Police made me to take a poligraph  Thats wrong that they should be able to make you take test that incriminate you and those psycho test that the evaluator put you through I wish I had refussed the test. I heard about some one who refused to be tested He pled the 5th amendment and said he didnt want to take a test that would incriminat himself  . I took it and I guess I did badly I ended up still paying a lot of child support but i only got one supervised visit where the evaluators didnt even let me touch her. and because my daughter was afraid of me (her mom brain washed her) they ended the visit right away and didnt want to add any more visits. So now I have to still pay child support and pay for her insurance which I dont mind doing but I'll never get to see her because of a false charge and because I dont take test well. The test were so humiliating and like mr kim har said not at all accrit and he is right about the courts profitting but what makes me mad is that my x has re married and I am paying mony to them each week and even thou I cant see my daughter if I dont pay they threaten me with the courts contemt , I was off work for 5 months and told them but because I didnt file something with the court I now owe for those 5 months. the judge actually got mad at me and threatend me with jail if I didnt pay.  I WASNT WORKING ! It is a crazy systim . I went a long time with out sleep and tried to play the game in the court TO EXPENSIOVE and to humiliating .At least it is on record that I tried and she does know that I PAY support too. I am now more at peace and I have to believe that when my daughter gets older she will look for me . so stay healthy and stay at peace just try to enjoy your life with your husband . your daughter will seek you out soon. and I think he should be able to end the two house thing soon since there was no clame  by the boy.

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Posted By: frank
Date: 2008-06-25 03:38:29

Your right Mr har It doesnt seem that they do anything to discover if it is false and they dont punish it. I sense your frustration too. What I find strange is that if Im so bad that I cant see her then why am I stil paying support. It just makes it hard for me to forget my pain when each week a chunk of money comes out of my check as a reminder I tried to give up my rights since MY ONLY RIGHT NOW IS TO PAY but my x wife I guess likes having TWO men support her life styal. Oh and the topper is that I had to pay for her whole families councling not just my daughter but even her kids from an other marriage. Cause of the trama that what they say I did had on them all. WHOS GONNA PAY FOR MY COUNCILING ?

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Posted By: johnhenry
Date: 2008-06-25 04:37:53

They get you at your weekest moment and they make you believe that they care.they even act like they are personally mad at your x  so you trust them. WE ARE SO STUPID. Its usually there idea that you provide your tax forms and proof of income. THATS SO THEY CAN BILL YOU FOR TALKING TO YOUR X later. I think my lawyer actually liked my x cause I got billed for a phone call he had with her long after the case was pretty much done. It is no wonder they make you go through a metal detector. Its not to protec the wife and kids. its to protect the lawyers who are eating steak tonight and not even caring that you got stuck paying child support and all those fees and ended up not getting any visits not even supervised. Im still paying on my case- LUCKY for the lawyers that they got all my information. I look back on it and reolize how I was just the sheep being lead to the slaughter. I should of never taken those test . cause now they think they are inside my head. and I should of never given them my taxes cause now they are always go ing to be in side my pocket.

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-06-28 23:26:04

John Henry- Oh man you hit the nail on the head- It is like they are all in on it together- I wouldnt be surprised if they didnt all have to give the judge a cut- the lawyer and the Judge are the ones who picked the GAL and 604b- they must get a cut of their pay. and I never thought about it before but it was my lawyer that first put in an order that I have to submit my pay stubs and tax forms- I thought it was to show the judge that I worked and could support my child- I never thought about it being so they all could collect easier them selves . You are so right I was a sheep being lead to the slaughter my own lawyer that was charging me to do it. It is the only job that if they do a bad job they get more money. Now I just work for cash as much as I can and I got my support order amended myself -to the smaller amount - I dont get to see my daughter at all- they have an OOP - I have to believe that my daughter will remember me and she will look me up some day so I am putting the extra money that I make with the cash in an account so that I can buy her her first car or something big when she looks me up in the future. I know that she will look me up on her own- the courts can't stop that- or profit off of it.

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Posted By: Brian B
Date: 2008-06-28 23:43:47

I need help, my kid was acting like he hated me at a supervised theraputic visit. Can anyone tell me what to do ?  Ive been told that if he acts uncomfortable again that the visits will be labled as not sucessful and they will end them. If they end, what else can I do ?   Will I have to keep paying child support if I can't see him? Please write with ideas soon my next visit is tomorrow afternoon. I can not sleep because Im so worried about it

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Posted By: Craig
Date: 2008-06-29 07:15:32

It is a comprehensive evaluation that investigates specific concerns - identified by the court at the outset - by tapping into multiple sources of data that include: 1) extensive individual clinical interviews with parents and children that employ both open-ended and structured questions; 2) observations of each parent with each child 3) review of relevant documents and records; 4) interviews with collateral sources  5) psychological testing as needed.

It sounds like you will also be having the psychological testing, as that is what is called for in sexual abuse cases. The evaluation will soon take on the appearance of what is refered to as a "pathology hunt" that holds divorcing families to a standard of mental health that is higher than that expected of intact families or non-litigating families and is indeed, often higher than what we expect of ourselves. The real issues to consider are those related to the strength of the parent-child attachment and the quality of that relationship . But yes I do agree with Frank ,it does seem to be an unconstatutional test as they will be taping into your natural responses to stimulation.  You are opening your self to being judged for the way your mind works.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-06-29 08:32:37

You are not alone Brian B. Im sorry that your visits are going badly and I hate to have to be so painfully honest. I hope Im wrong but if you already had one bad visit chances are this one is also going to be bad too. Now you are going to be labled. Before you get labled,  I'd make up some excuse as to why you can't make the meeting. I know it goes against everything you believe but your kid sounds like he is already brainwashed against you, and having a bad visit just makes it easier for the courts to error on the "best interest of the child" and take the visit rights away FOREVER. and if you are paying child support and they take away visits you will still be putting a kid through college, you just wont get to see them. 

Get the courts out of your family if possable. Make a deal with your x OFF THE RECORD .Mark my words you will be the only one paying for anything, and if the kid says he doesnt want to be with you thats all they need to hear. Now their conscience is clear to take your money and your rights away at the same time and even tell them selves that they are good people protecting children.

If you make an agreement between your x and your self with out the court , then after the hostility is over between your xwife and you youd be surprised at how they come to you for help if they dont feel threatened about you. Lets face it women want to control. so your better off letting them think that they are, they will then let their guard down and hopfully things wont be as bad for you as they ended up for me. If the X doesnt feel threatened by you chances are she will stop talking bad about you in front of the kid too. I'm paying out of my ass and I dont get to see my kid at all. Cause my x got those visits labled. If it is any comfort I do hear of Dads getting back with their kids after years of seperation, espeicailly boys. Boys need their Dads.

Trust me . Your lawyer will not agree to you making a deal with your X or to you not going along with the road map program that they have designed to TAKE AWAY ALL OF YOUR MONEY. But think about it. They are not really looking out for what is best for you. They are not even really looking out for what is best for the kids. They really are looking out for what is best for THEM. More Money !

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Posted By: VINNY 101
Date: 2008-06-29 13:52:20

 I believe it's a child's basic human right to have a healthy realtionship with BOTH parents. I am divorced and my x has tried for six long years to alienate me and the court's allow this madness to happen. We live in a society that is so corrupt that unless you have God in your life and come to his seat of mercy asking for forivness, wisdom, knowledge and clarity of mind we stand absolutely no chance against these vile destructive people. So to all you dad's out there, some women stil believe in truth and justice and not all women are vindictive. there are some of here still who continue to leave all the channels of communication open waithing for the day that our children will come to find us and learn the truth. All we can do is ask our Lord Jesus Christ to build a hedge of protection around them and ask Michael the arch angel to encamp around them so that no forces of the enemy can came close to play with them, whether in there minds, spirit or soul, they will be covered. also ask the Holy Spirit to continue touching the hearts and minds of your precious children and really pray for them to one day learn the truth of how much you think about them, love them and want them as your friend eventually. My prayers are with all the broken hearted, disappointed, angry, confused , lonely and suffering individuals out there who need someone to tell them it wil be ok.

 

May God bless you all 

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-06-29 19:52:16

Thank you Vinny for your heart felt prayer- I do know that one day I will be reunited. I do  wish I had found a site like this one to give me advise before I made so many mistakes, so that when we are reunited -I might of had some money to really do something amazing for her. But instead her Mom is taking every last cent of mine- she even got my tax return thanks to my lawyer and HIS idea of my giving her my information. I know it will be OK, and money isn't important- but if I knew then what I know now- I could of not paid for all these lawyers, and not paid for the support of my X (really how much goes to the kids?) then when my x needed something she might of been humble and come to me, and I would of had all that money in the bank collecting interest. I could of called my daughter on her 18th birthday (legally) and said "Hey we need to talk, I was falsly charged....and oh by the way I have a brand new car to give you for your birthday just to prove to you that I've been thinking of you" instead when my daughter turns 18-- I'll still be paying off the lawyers and back support. I wish I had been more careful.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-06-30 06:19:49

Just checking in and wondering if Brian B's visit went well. Did you go or did you cancel it ? I hope I didnt sound too negitive with my advise yesturday, I guess I am just a bitter man who used to believe in justice but who now is reminded each week (when I see the chunk that is removed from my check) of the courts, the lawyers, and all the Physcologist who basicly just charged me a HUGE TOLL for going through there system and my own Lawyer was the one who installed the IPASS system , by having me provide my work information, and my tax information. HOW WAS THAT LOOKING OUT FOR ME. These thieves get your information and then determine how long of a ride they can take you on, you end up not getting anything you were seeking, you end up getting labled and put on some child molestor list, and they end up having their hand in you pocket forever. They actually don't even really look out for the child because if it were true all that my x was saying about me why didnt they JUST TAKE MY RIGHTS AWAY, no they think its OK to just keep charging me for a kid I got one visit with and the visit was labled bad. Forget about JUSTICE it doesnt come through the courts system , it comes from God some day.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-06-30 20:21:17

I know it doesn't seem fair, and I hear the rightousness in your tone, but it doesnt matter if you were cleared, because In the courts eyes that just means that they couldnt prove it.  The court will look at the whole picture . Does your daughter want visits with you ? That is a big desiding factor , so if you can prove that you  have supported her her whole life and she says that she wants to see you, and if you have no documented history of past abuse then the charges of sexual abuse will just have to be explored before they grant visits. You stated that the courts know she is manipulating so you really shouldnt have a problem. I understand they have to protect the children but Dads have rights too ! The court will by law have to order visits that a psycholigist observes to see how you both interact, and as long as your daughter hasnt been brain washed it should be fine. mine was brain washed and all I got was 1/2 a visit and a life time of support obligations, thats why Im on line all the time, I'm alone and I can't afford to go out.

Im glad that you are saying NO to the self incriminating process of the 604B. You should not PAY to have them label you, and that is all they do. But if your x does go to the 604B and you dont that could still label you. Make sure the Judge is informed on the record by  filing a motion, its called "a motion to amend or vacate an order" state on the main part of your motion

 "I am asking the Judge to amend the order dated ____ .With all due respect to the court  after considering my own constitutional rights, I am requesting that the court amend the order as I feel it would be unconstitutional for the court to ask me to submit to a test that is bias and could incriminate me, I also want to go on record that I am unwilling to  pay for the 604B evaluation as it would be unconstatutional to force me to pay so that I can incriminate myself, and since ______ is filing a rule to show cause against me ,that I feel that turning over my taxes would also be incriminating. and it is unconstatutional to ask me to incriminate myself.

If your Lawyer won't do it for you, then fire him, and file it yourself. It seems that all he's done for you so far is get a 604B appointed and have you pay for it ! and since you are now turning in your taxes , my guess is that your x is claiming you make more money then before and that she wants her share. Well obveously your Lawyer didnt do his job if that actually got excepted. Judges dont usually issue those easily. Warning though ,since she has filed a rule to show, you should also know that by you turning in your taxes (3YEARS Worth) you might be proving her contempt charge for her. If you havent paid the 20% during those 3 years. So not only will you be incriminating yourself for a money judgement , you will also be incriminating your self on a contempt charge. Because a big part of contempt is "you were able to pay !" So you turning in your taxes is you saying "See I was able to pay she was right" . All she should be able to ask for is your last months of pay stubs. The fact that your lawyer is allowing you to turn in 3 years of taxes is INSANE. Did you know that if someone files a contempt charge against you that is criminal and you could go to jail, but, Something I bet your Lawyer never told you ! The good news is that if someone is filing a criminal contempt charge against you  if you dont have a lawyer the court will legally have to appoint one for you FREE . No doubt , one better then the one you have.

Your x filing the contempt charge could actually help you, if you fire your Lame Lawyer right away, before they start to hear the rule to show cause. Because If you keep your lawyer they can actually order him to stay on your case and defend the contempt and that could really drag out and since you already signed a contract with your lawyer TRUST ME he's glad about this, he is already planning the addition on his house, thanks to you.

If you havent given him your taxes yet -DONT !

You said the case started in 2006 , have you been fighting for visitation all this time?? Have you not had visits during this whole case ? How old is your daughter ? If she is old enough, she can talk to the Judge if you ask him to let her.

Still waiting to hear from Brian B - about his visit ??

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Posted By: Brian B
Date: 2008-07-01 04:05:47

Hi John Henry, thanks for your concern . I've been numb the last couple days just trying to understand what is happening to me. I didn't get to read your advise until after I had already had my second or should I say my last court supervised theriputic visit.

You were right. My son did act scared of me and they ended the visit right away. I have never done any thing to make my son act this way. He wouldn't even talk to me. So the shrink just ended the visit and wrote something about it in his little book. I tried to explain to him that I know the kids been brain washed, and I asked how I could make it better and when would our next visit be. That is when he said "I'm sorry to inform you but I will be advising the court to end all visitstion with the child as is seems to cause him to much distress." They are not offering any treatment or classes. Just ending all visits. I was never found guilty of any thing. How can they just take my son away.

So now as heart broke and judged as I feel I  must know is my xwife still going to be entitled to my weekly child support and insurance premiums. I do want to support my child but I'd rather just send him things as he needs, and send him fun things. I hate the idea of supporting my x.

Can they order you to support a child that you can never see ?

Isn't it like they took away my rights so I should not have to pay ?

Does any one have any idea of what is going to happen next ? 

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-01 05:21:33

This thread is really busy !  It sounds like we are making a differance here. That is great. I agree with everything that John Henry is saying. I also lost rights to my child and I think if I had a place like this to get support I maybe would not of made the mistakes I did.

It's been awhile for me , I have healed and learned to cope ,  I may come off as sounding cold. But believe me it still hurts but we have to be smart not emotional.

Fact is that once a child does not want the visits. the ruling is going to be NO VISITS. You may take the long expensive route to getting to that ruling, or you may give up. The courts count on us blindly playing their game. Even though they know already that we are going to be the losers. They count on the fact that we are men and we will fight for justice, they count on our love for our children being more important then money. They want our money so we are fair game. YES the worst your Lawyer does defending your rights, the more he gets paid ! It is that simple. Mine always said don't worry the fees will be paid back to you when the Judge orders your wife to pay them. That never happens, it is just a trick lawyers use to get us to play their game longer. I'm not saying give up on your child, I'm just saying it doesnt make much sense to play a game where the out come has really already been decided.

Sorry about your losing your visits Brian , I do feel your pain.

Let me share a little trick I used to help me get through this. Each night before i go to bed I write in a journal just a short note to my daughter and I date it, I also put all the change from in my pocket into a jar that I keep by the journal. I have her picture there too. This is my little kiss goodnight for my daughter, and when she is old enough to look me up on her own (and they always do) I will have this to show her, then she will know that I didnt forget her.

I know this sounds crazy and maybe lazy but I just wish I had let my x and her new husband terminate my rights like they origanally had tried to do. Because then there would be $1000.00 dollor bills in that jar instead of just change. Like I said we need to be smart NOT EMOTIONAL - they count on us being emotional.

I am now paying support each week for a child I am not allowed to visit. They (the mom and step Dad) are driving new cars, buying nice things, and going out to dinner. While I work 60 hrs a week just to keep up an apartment.

When my daughter does come to me in the future she will look at me like Im a loser because I have nothing . If I had just known then what I know now - I would be keeping all my pay, not making Lawyers and Shrinks rich. and most importantly not paying so my x can  get her hair done and buy new clothes for herself.

Its easy to act rightous and say I want to pay child support. We have been raised to do that. But the money doesnt really go to your child, you are better off saving it for her and giving it to HER when she turns 16 ( the legal age a child can be emansipated I think). At the rate the courts move you may be fighting and paying till then anyway. I know I was in the system for three years fighting a battle that had already been declared from day one.

Would of been nice if my Lawyer would of informed me that I didnt have a chance, I thought they were suposed to really advise you not just drag you through the system so they can profit.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-01 07:42:24

Ken is right is should be veiwed as manipulation of the court and to some degree it is. But the problem is that there is abuse out there. So the system is set up to err on the side of the safety of the child. So if an x  can make you look bad in any way in the eyes of the court, such as late payments, missed visits (when you did have them), poor work history (even though its due to fighting this in court), past marriages, affairs, and if there are any police records even resembling abuse YOU ARE COOKED.

The women really doesn't even have to instruct the child as Ken put it. Think about it from a childs perspective. They really don't know us any more after the court has drug it out for years. We are really strangers to them now, so of course they are going to act different at the visits, even if the x says and does nothing to promote that. In fact the Psychiatrists do look for programming but if you havent seen your kid for a long time there is no need for programming. Kids will show their true fearful feelings of a stranger, then the Psychiatrist will label you a child molestor and you will have that on your record for life.

That is why I believe Frank is saying don't play their game, its not just the never ending money pit, it's the stamp they place on you of guilt in the end.

And they can sleep at night because they feel they have protected a child. Oh and they sleep well because their bills are all paid by us too.

We end up sleepless from missing our child, from being poor, and from feeling the shame of the label.

It does seem that Frank is saying GIVE UP, but I understand cause I've already gone through this system too. He is just saying step back and take a differant route, and know that time heals all wounds.

 

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Posted By: DeziDog
Date: 2008-07-01 08:11:59

Hello all, I just did a search under “False sexual abuse charges” and I found this site. Very informative article and unexpected useful advise. My situation has a different twist. I have not been ordered to pay support yet,

my x girl friend who I have a young child with, is claiming that I am “a sexual deviate” just because I have been a bit kinky with her, and her teen age son said that I showed him some porno (no comment on that).

Well I am being told that this is a crime- Gezz what is this world coming to. I was just trying to be like a Dad to him. The States Attorneys office has questioned her son and now they want to go after me.

She is offering to have me voluntarily terminate my rights, which would mean I would not have to pay child support, but also that I would not be allowed visits with my child either. The Judge is looking favorably on her because she is not out for money. I guess it makes me look really bad if she doesn’t want my money. I am just a blue collar worker she comes from a well to do family. She clearly just doesn’t want me in her life.

What would you do ?

Oh and my kid is acting weird around me lately too.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 10:13:29

Wow... I am so glad to have found this site. I've been needing to make some connections with guys going through the same things that I am, but anyone I've tried to talk to just doesn't understand.

I was feeling guilty for even thinking of giving up parental rights to my daughter and giving up this eternal court battle, but now I'm thinking it may be the smarter and easier way to go.

If I may, I'd like to jump in here and get some support from you other dads out there.

My daughter is 8 and I never actually legally married her mom, although I always tried my best to help her out and be there, she always tried to push me away. Finally when she got pregnant with Casey, I thought I my ex would want me around permanently.... that was not the case unfortunately. :-( We lived together on and off, mostly off. I was around for Casey for the first couple years of her life and then my ex "fell in love" with her rich boss and they got married right away. I was too depressed about her leaving me, to even want to see my daughter for the next couple years and I was NOT about to make child support payments to my ex and her rich husband! -- like they really needed my money!!! -- How much does a kid cost anyway??? They wanted me to pay more than a thousand dollars every month!!! Forget that! So, I didn't pay and I didn't visit for a while ... when Casey was a little older and not so much trouble (diapers, bottles, crying, etc.) I wanted to have visitation with her AS IS MY RIGHT!!! I am her biological DAD! HELLO!!! Her mom said "No way!" so I took her to court....

I've been paying thousands of dollars for the last five years and it's gotten me nowhere but in debt. Now the lawyers are suing me for non-payment! I have paid them more than enough but they want it all and I am going to lose my town-home and my RV ... the bank is foreclosing on me and the lawyers have attached liens on all of my property. I have bad credit and won't be able to get some of the jobs I've applied for because the JOBS have asked for credit references!!! What is that all about?? I'm trying to get a job and they need credit references?? That's why I NEED a job, so I can pay my bills! I may end up going to jail/prison because of all this, but that's another long story.

I only wanted to see my daughter, who actually doesn't even remember me or even want to see me. I don't know if my ex "brainwashed" her... I don't think she would want to hurt her own child that way, but Casey is very uncomfortable with me. The supervised visitation seemed like a good idea at first, but were really awkward... I had to pretend to play dolls and Barbies with her... not my style. I think the psychologist thought I was sexually inappropriate because of the Barbies? He seemed to be writing things down while we played and it didn't look like he approved of the way I played with Casey. Casey didn't seem too happy either.

First question - What was I supposed to do and how was I supposed to play with my 8 year old daughter?

Second question - Is it wrong to give up my parental rights to my daughter and just wait until she comes to me when she is older?

My niece is 17 and she just left her mom and step-dad to go re-unite with her real dad, my brother. She's now living with my brother and they have a great relationship! I'm thinking that the relationship would have been non-existent if my brother had dragged her through the court system.... my niece would have ended up hating him and he would have lost anyway... and he would have been in a lot of legal trouble, like I am now.

Why am I so stupid to think I can win? Maybe I am just bitter at my ex and want to punish her? I'm the one who lost out. But if I was smart, I would have just waited and then my daughter could come to me when she is 12 or 13 or whenever... and leave her mom in the dust!!! Then that would punish my ex worse than any court system! I am thinking of doing that... and saving money to buy her something really special that her mom wouldn't let her have, like a car or something. Time goes so fast and before you know it, the kids are teenagers and how fun to get to meet their real dad who has been saving up for 8 years to buy you a car!

Let me know what you guys think about my idea.... and thank you!

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Posted By: Carmen Rodriguez
Date: 2008-07-01 10:34:14

My daughter was molested by her "real" dad and I will do anything in my power to keep him away from her. I am not a bitter ex-wife, or at least I wasn't until I realized what he'd done to her. I am just a mom who is trying to protect her child. Until there is some magical way that an accused dad can show that he is innocent, the 604B evaluator is the best choice out there. Why should we risk the safety and emotional health of our children just because it's not a perfect system? I do not try to poison my daughter or brainwash her... I don't even bring any of this up to her. That would only hurt her emotionally.

When her father has gone to counseling and is able to be a good parent, and also when my daughter is old enough to protect herself (maybe 15 or older?), then they can try to re-build their relationship, IF they want. I have no problem with her seeing and getting to know him when she is older, in fact I think it would be good for her then. But while she is still so young and innocent it is just wrong to put her through it. Sorry for you innocent dads out there, but just realize that you are just the victims of an imperfect system that is doing its best to protect innocent children... the children we are responsible for.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 11:58:56

Hey Carmen, I'm really sorry about what happened to your daughter, but how can you be so confident that what your ex-husband did to her was really abuse? Maybe he was just being a loving dad and she took it wrong?

Sometimes we fathers are just trying to be ourselves and it comes off wrong... this world is so crazy!! There are teenage girls walking around half-naked and that is accepted by society, but if a dad just happens to touch his daughter on her private parts, maybe just giving her a bath or even just being affectionate, we are labeled as sexual deviants.

How is a little girl supposed to learn about sex and the differences between boys and girls if they are not allowed to learn it from their parents? And it's nobody else's business what goes on between a father and a daughter....

Now I am losing my town-home, my RV and I can't even get a job because of my bad credit. I am being threatened with jail-time, my lawyers are going to get any money that I receive for the rest of my life. Once they got hold of my tax information, I was S-O-L!

The 604B was a bad idea too, because my mind wandered and the test recorded my thoughts as perverted! I didn't even think about anything perverted!! That test is on my record permanently now and any future children I may have may be taken away from me too.

I wonder... does anyone know if the 604B test shows up when you apply for a job? Is it on my record permanently?? Should I just drop the case now and count my blessings?? Just wait a few years for my daughter to come around?

Help me! I'm so frustrated by all of this!

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-01 13:21:56

Hey Carmen sounds like your pretty sure your daughters Dad is a jerk and you are sure he molested her. FYI they don't have "MOLESTER MANAGEMENT" programs. Real molestors have a sickness in the head that can't be counciled away. So why don't you just stop giving him hope JUST SO YOU CAN KEEP IT IN THE SYSTEM and continue to collect CHILD SUPPORT. Since you really believe your x is such a monster, did you offer to just let him give up his rights including HIS RIGHT TO SUPPORT ? Since he isn't going to get visits now you probably figure no harm in keeping his money RIGHT ! I say "since you are protecting her and he won't get to see her till she's 16 , then STOP TAKING HIS MONEY"

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-01 13:33:35

To Rick

Did you have a Lawyer ? Did he stand by and just let you submit to a 604B evaluation ? We all talk about how those who falsely acuse never get punished- RIGHT- But what about those who Lawyer lazily , just for profit- You should just sit in court one day and listen- No body sues a bad Lawyer- they are the ones getting away with a crime. They lead you like a trusting sheep right to the slaughter. The only time you'll see a lawyer doing a good job is when he is defending him self or a family member, other wise they just don't care and if you dare to disagree with the road they want you to take they actually get angry with YOU- and you are paying them. Its the system -be smart stay out of it- it's to late for me.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 13:57:11

Hey thanks Frank!  I did have a lawyer but he really gave me bad advice.  He thought the 604B was a good idea, but it ended up that he made even more money on that.  When I went to the 604B my lawyer got to charge more fees and make more paperwork.  He's not my lawyer anymore, but I owe him more money than I will make for the next several years.  I can't sue him, you're right about that!  But I hired him to represent me and my best interests.  Isn't that malpractice?  Or is that just how they go about business?  All those jokes about lawyers and how everyone hates them??  Now I know why!!!  Is there any way I can get my life back?  My town-home?  Where am I supposed to live?  Maybe my lawyer will let me move in with him.  LOL... but not really laughing. 

It seems like the more I was fighting for my daughter, the more she hated me.  I wish I'd have just let things go and been more agreeable to my ex.  Then there wouldn't be this bitterness.  Kids hate all the stress and the court stuff.  She would probably still have good feelings for me if I would have given up my legal rights and just been her dad-in-waiting.  I've heard that little girls never forget their dads - my niece is a good example of that. 

All of that anger is what poisoned my mind and made me think that getting a lawyer would punish my ex.  I've only poisoned myself.  Maybe it's not too late for me, since my Casey is only 8.  Guess I'll have to pray about it and just let go of my bitterness so I can think more rationally.  Thanks again Frank.

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Posted By: Carmen Rodriguez
Date: 2008-07-01 16:34:25

No Frank, I am not about to give up on the money that he owes me!  It is well over ten thousands of dollars!  Thanks anyway for your concern.

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Posted By: Robbie
Date: 2008-07-01 20:24:57

Anyone in this thread know anything about a 215(a) evaluator ?

I just went through the expensive process of the 604(b) evaluation. His recommendation to the court was that if I even just wanted supervised therapeutic visits that I should first have to go through a 215(a) evaluator who specializes in sexual dysfunctions. Because his finding were suspicious and to err on the B.I.O.T.C. (best interest of the child) they would need a more in depth test. The court ordered it ! W T F !

I thought when I was done with the 604(b) that would be it, I already paid $6000.00 to him and now his big recommendation is that I have to go to another evaluator and pay a $5000. Retainer Just for me. I was already outraged when the GALs big recommendation was to go to the 604(b). The GAL by the way cost me over $3000 so far. But every time my x shows up at his door with a new witness its- cha$$ ching$$. Right now every time my x talks , files a motion, or makes a phone call. I’ve got 4 people charging me .

NO MAKE THAT 5 people charging me because I’m also having to stay current on my child support or else I’ll lose on the technicality of non-support.

I haven’t been able to find much online about a 215(a) I really am in shock. I was sure that I’d get at least the therapeutic visits, and yes I knew they would be real hard “ALIENATION SYNDROME”.

When I paid for my Lawyer $3,500. Retainer. I remember thinking “THAT’S A LOT OF MONEY“(but we are up to $7,600) -Then the GAL was ordered $3,000 retainer plus miles (lots of miles -man can she talk)

I got it together cause I figured I’m into this for a lot of money already-Then the 604(b) evaluator $5,000 THAT WAS AN ORDER - I kind of thought I had to pay that -plus Now the 215(a) now $5,000 - WHEN IS THIS GOING TO STOP !!!

I’m into this for over $20K and I get nothing but days off of work.

LIKE I SAID does any one know about the 215(A) evaluator ?? And more importantly I want off this ride does anyone know HOW TO MAKE IT STOP!

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 21:59:33

Sorry Buddy, I never heard of the 215(a).  All I can guess is that you passed the first one and you're moving up.  (?)  

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 22:16:45

Hey Jeff... I think it is your right to refuse the test. None of the other guys I know who have taken the test have ever actually benefitted from it. I don't want to tell you what to do. Do you like your lawyer and do you trust him and his judgement?

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 22:19:42

Jeff... maybe you can refuse on the grounds that you don't want to incriminate yourself and also that you can't afford it, since you are paying so much money in child support for a child you are not even able to see.  See what the judge says about that!

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Posted By: ALAN J.
Date: 2008-07-01 22:30:04

WHAT THE HECK ARE A 604B AND A 215A?  ALL I'VE HAD TO DO SO FAR IS THE THERAPEUTIC VISITS, WHICH HAVEN'T WORKED OUT YET. ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO IMPROVE ON THE VISITS?  MY KID ACTS LIKE HE'S AFRAID OF ME.  I HATE TO PUT HIM THROUGH THIS CRAP. 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 22:38:20

Nobody said this was going to be easy.  We're all going through the same garbage.  All I have to say is that you should be careful and don't end up like me.  I am LOSING my town-home, my RV and my good credit.  I am losing everything and am only causing my 8 year old daughter to be more nervous and afraid.  Kids don't like this turmoil.  It's not good for them. 

I am thinking that since I do really care about her, that I just might drop this legal stuff, drop my so-called parental rights and try again when she is 12.  I think that is the age of consent.  She can then speak for herself in front of the judge and if you think about it, 12 year old girls are not usually very close to their moms... they are rebellious and wanting to leave the nest.  Perfect timing for me to swoop down and offer her her daddy's loving arms.

 What do you think about that Jeff?  Alan?  Anyone?

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Posted By: ALAN J.
Date: 2008-07-01 22:46:25

I DON'T KNOW RICK... I JUST STARTED THIS SINCE LAST YEAR, BUT IF I END UP SPENDING TOO MUCH MORE MONEY AND NOT GETTING ANYWHERE, I MIGHT CONSIDER IT.

I'M ALREADY EXHAUSTED AND MY SON IS THE ONE SUFFERING. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I WON VISITATION AND THE POOR KID WAS JUST MISERABLE THE WHOLE TIME AT MY HOUSE? WHAT WOULD I DO? BUY HIM TOYS? WOULD THAT MAKE HIM TRULY HAPPY? I JUST DON'T THINK SO.

THERE'S NOTHING WORSE THAN BEING A LITTLE KID AND BEING FORCED INTO VISITING A "DAD" WHO IS VIRTUALLY A STRANGER, WHO YOU ARE ALMOST AFRAID OF... AND THEN GOING BACK HOME WHERE YOU FEEL SAFE, ONLY TO HAVE TO START ALL OVER AGAIN THE NEXT VISIT.

WHY ARE WE DOING THIS TO OUR KIDS?

WHO WINS?

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 22:50:11

How old is your son?  That might be a deciding factor in whatever you decide.

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Posted By: ALAN J.
Date: 2008-07-01 22:51:38

HE'S TEN

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-01 22:57:41

Ten, ten and a half?  By the time you go through the court's "maze" your son will be well over 12.  I would let it go - keep your name clear, so when he is 12 (in less than 2 years) you can start with a clean slate.  Good times await you. 

My brother's daughter just came back to him full time all on her own at 17.  You don't even have to wait that long.  Just drop the case and pick it up again when he's 12.  He will be the one that will have to refuse to see you and by then he will be ready.

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Posted By: ALAN J.
Date: 2008-07-01 23:01:20

GOD BLESS YOU RICK!  I AM GOING TO TALK THIS OVER WITH MY FAMILY AND SEE WHAT THEY THINK.  MY MOM'S BEEN FEELING REALLY BAD ABOUT PUTTING HIM THROUGH THIS.  I KNOW SHE JUST WANTS WHAT IS BEST FOR HIM. 

THANKS EVERYONE AND GOOD LUCK! 

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-02 06:46:44

Robbie asked “What is a 215(a)?” Hate to have to tell you , but that is proof that your 604(b) evaluator already thinks your are GUILTY of some kind of pedophile or perverted acts. Which means his opinion of you is NOT GOOD , either because you tested poorly with him, or your x, or one of her witness’ is very believable.

But since they are saying you need to do the 215(a) before being given the therapeutic visits.

I don’t know what to tell you. If you pay the money and take the test and meet with the 215(a) you are really incriminating your self. They already know how this is going to end they are just making you jump through hops so they can make money and say hey we did all we could.

I’ve always suspected that they were in each others pockets, but someone in this thread brought up a very good point- they make money off of having to fill out a paper or making a phone call to these people . So now you are paying for all of them to talk to each other.

You say you want to get off this ride ? I know that is the hardest decision to make. But I’ve got to tell you the system is unfair, you seem to be losing, don’t be stubborn and keep paying because after the 215(a) even if you do good ,you will only get the therapeutic visits , THOSE ARE EXPENSIVE TOO and they can go on or just end because your child acts like they are uncomfortable. Or your x will tell them that you kid had a nightmare after the visit, and you are back to square one.

 

The only way I’d encourage anyone to continue fighting in this system after a test has been ordered

is if the kid is not brain washed and if the kid is crying that they miss you.

Then you’ve got to fight it ! But if they are already brainwashed it’s my opinion that you will be better off & your kid will be better off if you drop your pursuit for visitation and let it go, don’t waist time being bitter about all the money you’ve thrown into the system already, and don’t be bitter about the child support.

Just focus on the day when you will be reunited and prepare for that day.

RUN don’t walk away from the humiliating and self incriminating process of Physiologist asking you questions about the accusations that have been made against you and testing you responses..

Even if you are totally innocent the test could still incriminate you.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-02 06:58:41

Hey Alen , you mentioned your MOM your childs GRANDMOTHER feeling bad about it all. Then just drop it ! Drop it right away before you do anything more to draw attention to yourself. Then wait 1/2 a year and have your child's Grandmother go to court and file for visitation. Family members can do that now.

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Posted By: ALAN J.
Date: 2008-07-02 14:28:22

THANKS JOHN FOR YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE GOING TO THINK ABOUT IT AND DECIDE HOW TO DEAL WITH IT. BEST TO YOU.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-02 21:15:40

It is really very simple Ken. Just fire your lawyer, You have that right. You don't even have to tell him why, but if you want a good reason tell him you just lost your job and can not afford his services. This way he won't try to attach your wages. Then he has to inform the court that he is no longer representing you and he has to file a motion of leave. You don't have to pay him for doing that, because that is his responsability.  Then the next court date tell the Judge that you could not afford the lawyer, or the 604b evaluator. The Judge can't order you to pay money that you don't have ! The worst thing that could happen is that they issue a rule to show cause -and that is OK cause you won't have to defend yourself -because at this point the court BY LAW has to appoint a FREE lawyer.

Oh and you should add that the reason you got fired was because you kept having to miss work for court.

Trust me Ken, I've been there.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-02 21:48:07

Ken,

I'll keep checking this site for updates. It really does my heart good to help someone not walk into the same trap that was set for me. The lawyer that the court appoints you is actually someone who DEFENDS people. He will know your constitutional rights and DEMAND them.

Oh, and you know why your lawyer got mad don't you ? He thought he had it all figured out, how you were going to pay him, pay his friends, and so on and so on.

Don't let him bully you ! THE NERVE ! You are paying him to DEFEND YOU, not to have YOU jump through hops and have him yell at you. What the F_ _ _  !

Stand up to him. When you tell him you were fired say its because you have to take off so much time for court, and also say its because missing your daughter has made you distracted at work, and you can not focus on your job. What do you do Ken, would you make expensive mistakes that cost the company money or would it be dangerous if you were not focusing.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-02 22:01:28

I think the GAL will understand that since you don't have a job, obviously you can't pay the 604b. He really only cares if you pay him anyway. Plus the lawyer that the court appoints you, at the next court date, will actually defend you, so things are going to be better right away.

Visits are going to be theriputic and supervised probably any way. Thats what you have to really worry about Ken- is you kid going to want the visits or has your kid been brain washed against you, cause if the kid is uncomfortable then they usually will just advise the court NO VISITS - that is why I am now paying support for a kid I don't even see.

I learned the hard way- that is why I am passionate about helping the guys on this site and others.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-02 22:16:02

I was a good Dad too, and I look forward to the day we are together again, for me it will be a couple more years.

The wound is still fresh for you, how long has it been since your divorce started ? trust me with time you WILL feel better.

That truck accident sounded real bad- YOU HAVE TO FOCUS !

I'm signing out now. Write and tell me how your lawyer took being fired ? I'll check in tomorrow night.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-02 22:24:03

Thats the funny thing- when they have to pay for it- they never order it. LOL

You will get a court appointed lawyer because the court by law has to appoint one if a rule to show cause is filed. and if your X doesn't file one, the Judge will. But like I said not to worry- It just means you have to  tell me why you didn't do something- but you KEN will now have a lawyer that is used to DEFENDING your rights. I am so sure of this TRUST ME , I've seen it happen, the free lawyers are better then the ones you pay. They still believe in JUSTICE , not just the almighty dollar.

I really got to go  Bye

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-03 06:27:38

This thread is really active - it is sad that a false sex abuse chat is so popular, but like Jake said it's because they work. John Henry you are giving really good advise. I agree with what you told Robbie, Alan, and Ken.

I noticed that Robbie is now being asked to see a 215a on top of the 604b. I guess the system has found a way to drain even more money out of us suckers. To bad you took the 604b -don't make the mistake of taking the 215a. Legally you do not have to incrimadate your self.

I am not surprised that Kens lawyer showed his true GREEDY self when Ken just asked for his rights to be defended- HELLO isn't that what he is paying him for?? I agree, Fire him ! I also agree it's best if he act like he got layed off from his job , and just can not afford this any more, these lawyers are too lazy to check your story out. In the long run he can use that same story to get out of paying for the 604(b) and any other test, and the GAL, and the theriputic visits which are really expensive and if your lucky they go on at $300. bucks a pop , but if your not lucky they label you and all visits end. Either way you have to pay child support. I was paying all the lawyers, the $300. for the visit and the $125. per. week child support. Who can afford this ?? Not me !

It would be nice if Ken could just tell his Lawyer the truth "Your fired, because You suck at being a Lawyer" but play it cool and act upset about losing your job and yeah blame the whole court thing for your problems - the court will have more sympathy.  I have seen great things happen with the court appointed lawyers in these types of cases too.

Oh and all you guys don't be so afraid of the Judge, as long as you show up for court and are respectful their isn't much the Judge ever does negitivly to someone who simply can't afford something so remember  KEEP YOUR COOL!

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-03 06:52:20

JohnHenry please e-mail me - I'm considering starting an online HOT line, for Parents going through this. I really feel there is a need for one. I figured it would be something I could do to stay positive and make a change in the system as it is.

I have a friend who knows computers and who could help me get it off the ground. I'd have links to court forms, articles about issues, and mostly just supporting others through this the hardest time in their life, there are things that can not be said on chat rooms.

Franklee967@yahoo.com

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-03 07:59:47

Ken... I read your last few posts and my heart is aching for you. You say your ex comes to you in your dreams every night torturing you? You lost focus on your job causing serious damage to a structure? It sounds like you are suffering something serious, not unlike Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

It might behoove you to get an appointment with your physician and see if he or she would recommend some therapy for you. You say you're a truck driver. Hopefully you have some decent health insurance to help you out. Stress like this is a leading cause in heart attacks. The last thing you need is to keel over dead one day.

I don't know how old you are, but I knew a guy who dropped dead at 32 from a heart attack. Before you stress yourself out even more with this custody issue, please look into your health. Your daughter will need you to be around when she is ready to reunite with you.

Take a break from the court system for a few weeks so you can get yourself back on track and have a nice relaxing Fourth of July weekend!  Take care Buddy!

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-03 09:32:52

Your x wants you to give up all your rights ?

Including the right to SUPPORT ??

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-03 09:38:53

Cause you know she will have to give up child support if you give up your rights.

Does she really mean it or is she just saying it cause she knows you won't do it ? She may just be saying it to make you look even worse in the Judges eyes - The Judge thinks wow this guy must be bad - she doesn't even want to go after his money.

But Dads don't give up and they end up paying even more cause the Judge takes the x on, almost like his own daughter and protects her.

Its all Tricky Tactics

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-03 09:55:44

You should call her bluff- I know alot of Dads are going to Judge me for saying that -but keep in mind I've been through this system I know how it works.

Ken judging from what I'm reading you are going to have a very long and very expensive road ahead of you and sorry to say the road may only lead to surpervised visits - which is worth fighting for ONLY if your child is not already brain washed. The road could very likely lead to no visits and you still having to pay lots of money.

If she really will just let you drop your rights. I'd go for it,

But ask that they add to the order that the child be given the right to a supervised visit when she reaches a certain age - maybe 12- and at that visit you be allowed to tell her that you have always loved her, and that you will always be there for her, if she needs you, but that she would have to be the one to contact you and that you be allowed to give her a phone number at that visit.

You'll be spending the next three years just trying to get visits any way- you might as well save money, and judging by what you are saying stay out of jail too.

If your x is serious about letting you give up your rights, she may be open to the inclussion of that claus in the order.

Just a thought.

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Posted By: Fritz
Date: 2008-07-03 12:48:10

does anyone know if there is a group that we fathers can join to fight this issue?  all this support is great but we need to change the laws to help protect men.  men always get the short end of the stick and it's about time we change things in this country.

i'm sick of all the testing, we don't have anything called a 604b in nevada but we have the psychological testing, polygraph and the plesmograph (VERY humiliating!) 

why are we being put through this torture?   how can they be so sure we committed the act we are accused of and who's business is it anyway whether we get aroused by their stupid videos and pictures?  that doesn't mean we are bad parents.  it has nothing to do with it.

let's get together and fight for our basic human rights! 

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-03 22:36:02

Have you been paying attention Ken, Haven't you been reading all the advice you've already been given ?  Do you like your lawyer yelling at you and then saying "that will be $300. please". 

OK , Now your lawyer says that "You might go to jail" or in other words "you need me". He probably senses that you are aware of his poor preformance and he wants you to feel helpless and in need of him

You say the Gardian asked for it, and the Judge ordered it. HMMM I don't hear you saying that your lawyer got upset and argued against it. Oh thats right they are all friends.

You said you were the one that filed the motion for visitation, right ? So basically everyone is there at your request, right ? There is no JAIL to worry about here, Ken, at any point you just have the right to ask for the case to be DISMISSED. It's your party DUDE, you can end it.

You can always have another party.

I bet your Lawyer will never tell you that. Just like he never told you, "if the Judge does get mad and threatens you with jail, don't worry just stay respectful, and ask for a court appointed lawyer, it will save you lots of money." No your Lawyer wouldn't tell you that would he. WAKE UP KEN - I see myself in you, and I see you making all the same mistakes.

If you think things are bad now- just take the 604b, there is no eraser big enough for that mistake. If you so much as blink wrong, Its on your record and can be brought in to be used against you in other cases too. I am now on a list, and I'm trying to help you stay off of that list. Is her daughter going to press charges against you ? That 604b can be used against you in that.

Oh Ken you never mentioned that your x would let you give up  your rights . Hard choices , I know. But not Jail at least.

 

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-04 06:39:15

Ok so you say the letter says "No charges approved", and the investigation is closed. Did she actually already press charges and you were found inocent? Because the statute of limitations in sexual abuse of a child doesn't even start until the child reaches 18 and then it can go up to ten years after the victim first reports it. So if she did not yet press charges, you may want to be very careful. Laws regarding sexual abuse of a child are very different from other laws. Thats why Moms use them in custody cases.

Sounds to me like she just did the child protection report- but hasn't actually pressed charges yet- she instead has enjoyed hanging that threat over your head. Am I right ?

You are just trying to get visitation, right ?

and she is asking you to terminate your parental rights and she is useing the false allegation of sexual abuse to get that to happen.

Is she claiming any physical abuse of the child?

Has she been collecting child support from you ?

Have you ever gone over 4 or 5 months (each state is different) with out contacting your daughter ?

These are all things that will be considered before a Judge as far as your rights being terminated.

It's a hard fight but if you have your noise clean (no Police records etc) and have done everything right then you might win. But you could still lose if the child doesn't want to be with you. She is getting old enough to testify. Would your x make her testify? My x did and that pain I will never be able to get out of my head.

If you lose and did not volunteerly terminate your own rights, they can still charge you child support and that actually will be your only right. Thats been my only right. Each week I'm reminded of it.

This system makes us jump through expensive ,humiliating,hops. Then if you do win they never punish the x for making you jump through these hops.

Be careful because if you do go to the 604b and your x has her daughter testify , then the 604b very likely will ask for a 215a or other similiar test, all in the BIOTC - (best interest of the child). Guess who pays for that one ?

Did the Police ask you to take a polygraph, about the sexual abuse charge ?

 If they do, just ask them to make her (the child) take one first. That way you are not refusing the test you are just saying as soon as she takes one I will too, and of course she won't take it because she knows she is lieing.

See , you just have to think everything through so you are not emotional in you thinking.

Once she refuses to take the test - youv'e called her bluf !

Hope that helps-

 I'm leaving for the long weekend , fishing with my brother and his kids, just breaks my heart that mine couldn't come with us.

 

 

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-04 09:21:47

I'd like to shed some light on this dreaded 604 b evaluation.

I went through a divorce and it was a heated custody battle. My x for the first few years after the divorce had custody and I had visitation. Every thing was fine until I  went to court to have the order amended and to get more visitation and less child support or joint custody (same thing ), Allegations were made and a 604b evaluator was ordered. I had to pay for all the evaluations too.

 But I was the only one really deeply being investigated, you see she already had custody, I was the one seeking time with the child so the focus of the investigation was on me. They include all parties in all 604 b evaluations, but that is only so they can question them about YOU, the person seeking time with a child.

JohnH is right it's all about BIOTC.

The sexual issues my x had with me did not involve a child and I did not set off any radar with the test as far as being a pedophile or sexual deviate. I was given a series of test and questioned for  hours with this prob attached to me. They give different test because some people do well on one type of test and not on another and they want a balanced judgement of the tested parties responses.

My x and my child were just questioned and were not in any way close, tested the way they tested me. because they were not the ones seeking something , I was.

It ended up being a big waist of time and money because even though I tested well, it all came down to what my child wanted. Wouldn't it of been nice if they told me that before I put down a $6,000. retainer. I am just getting my head above water and am researching the posibility of sueing the 604 b for charging me for a test that had no value to begin with. Why did they put me through all that and charge me all that money, if they knew in the end the Judge would just ask my child what her wishes were.

Only in America !

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-04 09:40:32

If any one out there has a 604 b evaluator story, or for that matter any evaluator story, they'd like to share. I am doing research and would really appriciate any in put. 

I interested in ansewering

Was the evaluation important in the Judges final order ?

Is an evaluation result only used if the results are negitive ?

Because if that is the case then we are being asked to (only)incriminate ourselves, with no benifit for testing well.

I do see some constitutional issues here, and am angry and have a lot of time on my hands, since I didn't get the time with my child that I wanted.

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Posted By: Fritz
Date: 2008-07-04 10:24:50

you guys are concerned about the evaluation? you call it 604b... that sounds like the series of psychosexual tests we have here in nevada. one thing i really want to warn you about it the penile plesmograph. if they threaten you with jail, i say big deal! jail would've been better than that horrible experience. and how can they force you to go through all of this if you are the one who started this court battle anyway. john henry is right - why can't we just say we are dropping the case due to lack of $$$$$? it's a free country - right? and why should we be penalized for becoming aroused by their sick porno videos and pictures that they show us? wtf?

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-04 11:20:10

Ken - Are you taking good care of yourself this weekend?  I hope so...

I had a couple questions for you, regarding the evil step-daughter who is going to testify against you.  Just wanted to get an idea of how this might end up for you.

1.)  How old is she?

2.)  Is she slutty, trashy etc. or is she a squeaky clean kid?

Just wondering if they maybe will get an idea that she is making this all up by her demeanor.  Is she pierced all over, tattoos, you know, like the typical white-trash teen.  

Just been thinking about you.... let me know how you're doing.   

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-04 13:21:33

Oh Geez Ken!  Your story sound horrible!  That woman, your ex sounds like a witch!  It sounds like your step-daughter is a trashy girl too! 

I can't believe how awful your life must have been these last few years.  Only problem I see for you - and it could be a BIG one - is that if her daughter got pregnant at 12, that could make it look like it's YOUR FAULT!  Especially if she can convince the judge that you somehow behaved inappropriately with her.  A child who was molested is much more likely to get pregnant at an early age.  This could be something that looks bad for you.  You are really in a bad place - as is any dad going through this, but yours sounds worse. 

1.) Is there any way you can postpone your case until your daughter is 12, so she can speak for herself and the judge won't have to go through the mom, your ex from hell?

 2.) Were you legally married to your ex?  How many years?

 

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-04 13:45:18

Hey Wally, I'd be happy to help you with your investigation of the fairness of  ordering  604 b evaluators and other evaluators, and hopefully help you prove that is a clear violation of our constitutional rights.

I have files on this stuff, I'd be happy to scan and e-mail to you.

My e-mail is franklee967@yahoo.com

I am considering starting an online hot line - better then a chat room, because it will have links to different State laws and court forms -I'm hoping to be able to help other Dads not make the same mistakes I've made - Maybe some day we will see a change in the way courts handle this if we Dads just say NO to jumping through their hops.

We Dads who have had to bear the shame of judgement for something we would never even think of doing, have got to stick together.

Oh and Thanks JohnH - for all your advise on the hotline - I really appreciate it.

Ken What can I say-  You need to move on Dude, since your kid is already brain washed -you are just taking test that will incrimanate you for nothing- the theripudic visits will probably not go well even if you do get them -because the Moms use this time to train the kids how to act. I know I sound like a quiter - but I've been there and lost everything.

You have a beautiful fiance that stands by you. You have friends at work- that support you and understand what you are going through.

You are actually VERY LUCKY that your x is willing to let you give up your rights- do you have any idea how many Dads would love to have that on the table.

My X thought about that option- but as soon as the Judge started ordering child support, and the evaluation didn't go well - she took it off the table- She actually said to me "Now you can pay me and I still won't have to see your sorry ass". She said that right in front of my daughter ! 

I know that some day we will be reunited so I am staying healthy.

 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-04 15:37:58

Ken you are breaking my heart.  You're so right.  The only thing we can do is keep our lives pure and full of God's love and pray that God will seek what is in the best interest of our children. 

Maybe the stress of court is driving your ex to be even more demonic than she would normally be.  Sometimes, when we are just trying to do what we feel is right, it only seems to make things worse.  I'm sorry that you have spent so much money on this mess so far.

You say your evil ex wants you to give up your rights?  How about you sneak a clause in the court papers saying that if you give up your rights, you DON'T owe her ANY CHILD SUPPORT???  See what the B*TH does then!!!!  Haaaa!  You'll be laughing all the way to the bank and then later you can still see your daughter when your daughter wants to see you (I think 12 is the age of consent) and STILL not pay the b*tch child support!!!  She will be so mad that she lost out on any future claims to your income!  You will have out-smarted the evil, sly fox!  

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-04 15:40:22

So sad... it is so easy for a custodial parent to brainwash a child.  There is no hope for us.  And they are still happy to take our money.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-04 15:48:56

Oh I just read your last post.  You never married her.  That might be good for you as far as getting out of paying child support.  You don't pay her anything like alimony, do you?  You might actually be lucky. 

Either way, there was little hope that you'd get visitation with your daughter, but if you want something to be happy about... if you can try to think positive, it's that you can save so much money not paying her.  

I'm just worried about you and your health Buddy.  Stress is a huge killer, especially of men in their 50's.  For real, take it easy and try to stay away from things that are bad for your health, like this case that was doomed from the beginning. 

I'm so sorry for you, but again, there is something to be glad about... your beautiful, loving fiance.  Not a drunken bar fly whore but a vibrant woman who wants you to stay alive to be her man.  Wish I could say I had someone in my life now. 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-04 17:40:35

She doesn't drink?  Ha!  Bar Whore that doesn't drink!  Now that is funny Ken!  She must have issues!  But, don't they all have deep issues?  I think it's just about impossible to stay friends with an ex.  I have seen it happen rarely but never in my case.  It just sucks to have to put kids through all of this animosity and hate.  It takes away their innocence... and doesn't society take their innocence soon enough?

You're 100% right, Ken!  You filed to see your daughter (an innocent pawn in this wicked game) not to be forced to take a humiliating test or to have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to lawyers who can't help you anyway.

I'd ask the judge if you can just give up the case, give up paying anymore child support since you don't seem to have any parental rights anyway!!!  What would you be giving up if you gave up your rights?  What rights?  Rights to pay lawyers?  Rights to be "ordered" to take tests about your sexual private feelings?  This country needs to change things and either give us our rights or call it what it is and tell us that we don't have any rights! 

I'm angry for you Ken!  This is not fair.  I only hope that by not continuing this bitter battle you may be able to save your daughter from any more poisoning from her bitter mom.

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-05 07:08:31

I am looking for stories about court orderd evaluations such as the 604 b evaluation and its out come. I am trying to do some research for a study that proves that the 604 b is really only used to incriminate and rarely if ever used to help insure visits, because as we all know that even after testing innocent of the acts you are being accused of, it is still left up to the child. So my point is. If they know that when all the testing is done, that the kid makes the choice, WHY NOT ASK THE KID FIRST ?

I know the answer all to well. It's so that they can get more money out of us, and because they really can't admit to the world that KIDS are really in charge in these matters.

My hope with this study is to have a future class action suit including thousands of Dads who have gone through this process. Yes , it will be a class action suit against Judges, lawyers, and the system it self, and all those who profit from it.

People say I'm crazy but , we all know this system is broken, some one has to devote their life to fixing it. Why not me?

Thanks Frank for all the information you e-mailed me, and good luck with your hot line. I think it is a great idea. I hope you will be up and running soon and thanks for offering to put a link on your site for my suit , that would be great !

Looks like lots of advise for Ken above, I'm going to read through it and submit my opinion. It is great that Dads are finding a way to support eachother. But we all need to be careful with the advise we give. This is the most important thing Ken has ever done.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-05 08:29:40

Wally, you're right.  I was angry for Kim and I'm concerned about his health.  Losing so much weight and having night terrors each night really worry me.  Sorry Ken.  I am just getting fed up with all this garbage and just hearing about your ex made my blood boil.  She reminds me of an ex I had (a couple girlfriends ago) luckily we didn't have any kids together.  This ex of mine would cheat on me with guys she met in the bar, one time while I was sitting at the bar waiting for her to come back from the bathroom, she was in the parking lot with a stranger in his car, performing.  Nice, huh?  So sorry to go off on your ex like that.  Maybe she's a nice lady in some ways.  Have a good weekend guys.  And Wally, count me in.

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-05 09:52:07

To Ken Har

I’ve just read through this page of postings and advise. I’m dizzy ! No wonder you are not able to concentrate and no wonder you have lost weight. In all fairness to the Judge, he must also feel a sense of dis function (to say the least) in regard to your past relationship .

Judges seem to hold Dads to a higher standard, so any dysfunction will probably be blamed on you.

Here is an example of this double standard-

1-you are the Dad so why did so much dysfunction take place under your roof

2- your daughter doesn’t want visits with you so we are not granting visitation

3- You are the Dad so you still have to support the family

Bottom line is we men are treated unfairly by this system. The system blames us for not controlling our family situation but in the same breath proves that the kids were in charge all a long !

I have to be honest with you Ken, you are not focused, your mind goes from one thought to the next and a lot of times you comments are not making any sense. I say this because , I understand , this confused state you seem to be in. I too went through this. But keep in mind the Judge very likely has not, and will not understand your lack of focus and will interpret it as GUILT!

For example you speak of a love triangle that you ended , and you say that your x is afraid that you will tell her fiancée about it ? Well , if he doesn’t know then why don’t you just tell him? What at this point could possibly be holding you back ? You call your x a bar whore but say she doesn’t drink, is she really a whore? Then my guess is that her fiancée must know this and probably knew she was a whore when he meet her. Some guys like that. But caution ! Remember you are now admitting that were with a whore for how long, and brought a child into this world with a whore ? See what I mean, you have to be careful what you say to the Judge ? The Judge will think ,Only a sexual deviate would stay in a relationship with a whore, only a sexual deviate would be in a (lets call it what it is) “sex” triangle. You are helping prove her point that hmmm maybe there was some sexual abuse of a child here. Oh and about that, if your step daughter does submit to a lie detector test and she is such a good liar (as you put it) that she could actually fool the polygraph machine, even though it is not admissible in court- be warned it is admissible to the 604 b evaluator, and will have a huge impact on there final decision. It is also a deciding factor on how hard the law and the State will go after you on the charges. It is odd that she is willing to submit to such a test, are you sure she isn’t just blowing smoke up your ass ?

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Posted By: wally
Date: 2008-07-05 09:56:36

 

Ken- You are the one bringing forth the motion for visitation, why don’t you already have visitation ? She is 9 years old , You were never married , You say you ended it with her in 04 . Its been 4 years (actually 9) with out legal visitation rights ? The Judge is going to probably find you unfit just on that alone. Is your x collecting child support from you regularly ? That is a big deciding factor. I read that you bought toys and took pictures of a cart of toys. That is really odd. Why would any one take a picture of a cart of toys ?

Do you see what I mean ? You at times don’t make much sense at all.

I’m only telling you this because if I, a Dad who has been were you are right now, and who obviously does not believe in our current system, is finding holes in your story. How much more is some one who profits from this system going to judge you.

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Posted By: wally
Date: 2008-07-05 10:14:50

Rick

I understand where you are coming from , we have all walked in Kens shoes.   But we all must remember, when we are talking to our neighbors, new girlfriends, and  espeically the court, They can not under stand ! They still  like to believe that there is JUSTICE, so they believe if this is bad thing is happening to you, hey you must be guilty. That is why I don't share my story with anyone except my fellow wariors of this system.

Ken

As cowardly as everyone’s advise seems , as far as you giving up your fight in court I have to agree that you are really gambling here and yes it seems you might have the fear of jail, depending on what State you live in. You also face being labeled a molester. You also could be ordered to pay her attorneys fee’s, the child’s doctor fee’s, counseling for life, the list goes on. Plus some States will charge a judgment for the child’s whole life of support before you brought forth your petition for visitation. They just add an arrearage to the current support that will be ordered (visits or not) So  she could get a huge judgment against you. Oh did you turn in your taxes ? I hope not.

KEN -This is were that polygraph comes into play, you see if the step daughter does take one, and God forbid it says she is being truthful - it is supposedly non admissible in court- but trust me the judge does know about it, and it will guide his judgment, maybe not on paper but in his mind. FAR TO MUCH IS LEFT TO THE JUDGES DISCRETION ! He is not going to feel guilty about throwing the book at you, if a girl takes a polygraph and incriminates you with sexual acts towards a child. Child sexual abusers are hated more then murderers !

 

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Posted By: wally
Date: 2008-07-05 10:41:49

 

Ken

You say you are happy now and have a nice girlfriend and you have wedding plans. Your daughter is 9 - very close to 12 . If she does have good memories of you, she will seek you out.

I don’t like to give legal advise , but I can’t read this and watch a man step into the same trap that I stepped in to.

You say you signed the voluntary acknowledgement of paternity so first you should file a motion to rescind your acknowledge ment of paternity and to voluntararily terminate your own rights, I’d do this before your x gains any more leverage with the court , and then changes her mind about allowing it.  Because then my friend- You are in DEEP SHIT !

How much time do you have before your next court date ? When where you supposed to meet with the 604B evaluator ? Be sure you File that motion before she goes to meet with the 604b.

You really should call the 604 b and GAL today- Just wait till they are out of the office and leave a message, that way you have it documented. Let them know your plans.  Tell them that since you are paying for them, they should be notified that you no longer want there services, and do not want them meeting with your x and that you will refuse to pay for any such meeting.

If you haven’t fired your lawyer yet, you may want to keep him around long enough to finish this for you - unless you feel that you can file your own motion, but honestly , sorry Ken , but judging by your spelling and grammar in your post ,you would be better off allowing him to finish it. Unfortunately he will be charging you to finish this so ask him to add to the final order that he is dismissed as your lawyer ,or trust me you’ll get charged for calls he makes and papers he says needed to be filled out long after court is over.

Please don't  let the Lawyer who is not looking out for your best interest bully you. You need to call him and say this is what I want done !

He is an  EXPERT MANIPULATOR that is what Lawyers do , so don't be surprised if he uses  this power on you. BE FIRM with him.

I hope this is helpful Ken, please do not bury your head in the sand on this,

If you think you have a sad story now, just wait till you go through our system of JUSTICE.

 Please write and let us know what happens.

ps. Ken then pain never goes away but each day does get better. God's wonderful power of healing, God bless.

from Wally

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Posted By: Tom
Date: 2008-07-05 11:54:13

Wally I have a 604 b story to share with you- Frank told me about your plan to sue. FINALLY somebody is brave enough to put a stop to this maddness.

My story began in 2001 when my x caught me having an afair, yes it was wrong but I had my reasons. She filed for divorce and she got sole custody of our two daughters then 4 and 6 years old. She also gets to live in the house we had together until my youngest turns 18 !  then she will only have to pay me half of what the house was worth in 2001- Fair ? Not ! I was orderd to pay mantaince and child support, and I paid for 2 years each week, but when I'd come to get the girls for visits things started to change, all of a sudden they were going to be busy with teams and dance classes. Then I'd see a strange car in the drive way. I wanted to know what the hell is going on at my kids house. So i admit i would drive by a few times a day, and i did park down the street and watched to see what was going on. I even asked my old neighbor if he knew what was going on (big mistake). The next day she files stalking charges against me, and my old neighbor is a witness for her, and the lady down the block saw me parked and watching so now I'm a STALKER ? I thought I was just a Dad who was paying all the bills that wanted to know the truth abot what was going on.

Well we went to court and she claimed that I was crazy and that the children were not safe with me, her witness' came forward and i left court that day with an OOP and a future court date to discuss my "Stalking" and oh last but not least an order to go to a 604B evaluator. I felt like cool they will see that I was just a concernd Dad - right?  No i had to go through all these test - stupid test- and they just interviewed my x. Well the 604 b evaluator came to the conclusion that i was obsessed with my x, and that all future visits needed to be theriputic while i received couciling for my DISORDER ! at this point I'm paying for a lawyer a 604b evaluator, child support, theriputic visits at $200. a visit, oh and lets not forget I can't buy even a condo for myself because all my credit is tied up in the house THEY are living in and she is not making the payments.

I played the game and went to the court orderd councler - i thought i had too. Well everyone, the 604, and the councler, seems to think its wrong that i'm having trouble letting go and they consider it a sickness ? I am not interested in my x i just wanted to know what was going on and how it might be effecting my girls.

I had the court supervised visits for almost a year- keep in mind you can not touch your child during these visits-do you have any idea how hard it is to not be able to hug and hold your baby girls and how weird that make the visit for them- so big surprise  the girls stopped wanting to go, they probably thought I diidnt love them any more, so the visit superviser presented to the court that the visits are not comfortable for the child so she asks the court to cancel them. I am at this point so broke from paying every one,so I am a little over two months behind in my child support. (another big mistake) I was actually found in contempt of court for being over 60 days late in child support and I had to go to jail. and the bail was actually me having to pay my x all that I owed her. I DIDn't have it- they kept me in jail for 23 days ( how did they expect me to work to make the money ?) then my mom paid the now 31/2 months of child support and they let me out. What if my Mom didn't pay - how long where they gonna keep me. well- It takes me a couple months of working over time to get caught up on my bills and then - It gets better- I lose my parental rights because I didn't see my kids or support them for that period of time. Yeah GOTTA love those 604 b evaluators. I wasn't even acused of any sexual acts with my girls. i guess I should be glad that its over as far as the support thing - that car in the drive way was her now new husband who ended up adopting my girls. So at least the whole paying for nothing ended and she had to pay me my part of the house on the date the termination took effect. But there that is my 604b evaluator story. I would love to be included in your class action suit !

 

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Posted By: wally
Date: 2008-07-06 06:12:27

Hi Ken

I know all to well that the last thing you need is more judgment. So please understand I am just trying to prepare you for the fact that the rest of the world (those who have never been falsely accused) can not truly understand our nightmare and they will judge you.

I read through all your postings and I thought you had called her a “bar fly whore”, but I see it was actually someone else that said that. That is good because I’ve seen where talking overly negative about your x can back fire. My best advise is to keep your comments clear and to the point , especially in court and especially since you have a learning disability. My only reason for commenting on your spelling and grammar was so you’d understand that you should probably have help filling out your forms, if you have already let your lawyer go, then I suggest that you get extra blank copies of motions and pre-write your motion at home and have a friend make corrections before filing it. I’m just looking out for you Ken, Judges get upset by sloppy miss-spelled and poorly written motions, even though a lot of the Judges them selves have the worst writing, just another example of how we are expected to live up to a higher standard, just to get what should be rightfully ours.

You say you've been cleared , Then how can your x threaten you with jail ? Yes, it will still hurt you very badly if the step daughter talks to the 604b evaluator and is believable, but if you have been cleared in the court already there is no threat of jail at least. But If you've only been cleared through the investigation process and not in court, sorry to say the step daughter can still take you you court criminally and also in civil court and if you think she will testify well, that is a big gamble. Like Jake said "Why do Moms use false sexual abuse allegations ....because they work".

If it is any comfort very few people can actually fool a polygraph.  One of the test that the 604(b) evaluator uses is very similar to a polygraph, it test your responses to stimulation and 604(b) evaluators have been known to use this test to test for truthfullness.

So if you do get intiminated by your lawyer, and do submit to the 604 (B) my advise to you is to be truthful. If no sexual mis conduct happened between you and a child you should test OK on that, but just be careful to not let your mind wonder to when you might have been 18 with a 16 year old girl friend, see what I mean. Plus you’re learning disability and your wondering mind and not being able to focus, will unfortunately hurt you in the 604b evaluation. Another example of the test being unconstitutional. This is why I would refuse the test. But it's your life Ken.

I hope you were able to get some useful advise out of my attempt to help you. I did spend a lot of time and thought on trying to help you.

Wally

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-06 06:48:48

Just an added comment for Ken, unfortunatly living with your x , and having weekly visits with your daughter for two years after you stopped living together, will not bear much weight in the court. Your lawyer should have told you this, before cashing your check.

The Judge will expect that you should have gotten legal rights to your daughter long before she turned 9. You are walking into court already being judged on that....do you understand, the Judge is judging you by what he (or she) would of done. The fact that you waited two years after moving out of your daughters home to file, will count towards abandonment even if you did have visits.

You say you have filed for visitation, did you also file to pay child support ? If you have never had an order to pay support and are just now filing for visitation, You will be Judged very harshly.

Even if you have been helping out by buying food, clothes, and as you said carts full of toys on a regular weekly basis. If you don't have cancled checks for every week of your childs life after you moved out, you will be judged.

Now with the 604 b and your x saying her daughter will take a polygraph (which by the way, you might end up paying for if she goes through the 604 b) Your chances of getting anything more then one theriputic visit are slim to none.

These are cold hard facts , but lawyers want your money so even if they know you are going to lose they still take the case. This system doesn't keep score of how many cases a lawyer loses, so they say.."why not rip off the guy with the 5th grade education ?"

Sorry  Ken, just the facts from someone who has been there.

Wally

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 09:08:32

Wally & Ken... sorry it was me calling Ken's ex a bar whore.  Just feeling anger at the moment.  I admit I don't know the woman and had no right to go off like I did.  Sorry Ken.... I feel bad for butting in to your business.  I know you have a lot to deal with and you don't need some guy like me stirring up more anger.  I'm sure your ex has many redeeming qualities and is probably giving your daughter a happy, safe and loving childhood.  I'm just worried about your health Ken and this whole system is so frustrating. 

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-06 09:55:16

I’m trying to help you Ken

I already advised you that you should not portray your x in a bad light by calling her a bar whore, which you actually did imply, but this last posting (of yours) is even worse- makes you look a bit crazy to say the least for staying with such an evil person. The court wants a simple clear case. They are angered by this he did, she did shit- If you are a good Dad, then just prove it. 

I was only replying because of your concern about the 604 (b)

I really am not at all interested in your self discribed, very dysfunctional family. 

My expertise is the unconstitutional use evaluators in the court system. You want to go on in your fantasy world that the polygraph is unadmissible in court , you are not listening , the evaluators them self use similar machines and then give advise to the Judge. Do you get it yet ? It is then left up to the Judges discretion, Is your Judge related to you ? No ? Then Good Luck.

Here I’ll try one more time and keep it real simple-

3 FACTS

 - if there is ANY doubt that your child is in any danger with you - You will not get visits, but will be ordered to pay child support.

- Your innocence means nothing ! They err on BIOTC.

 - If you waited this long to file for visitation - you have abandoned your daughter in the eyes of the court and will not get anything that the sole custodial parent doesn't want you to get..

I’m just trying to save you from finding this all out the way so many of have, the expensive way.

Oh by the way your welcome for the time I’ve put into caring about what happens to you.

Good Luck, you seem to have it all figured out.

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-06 10:12:26

I am not going to waist my time giving advise to Ken Har , as in his own last posting he admitts to knowing about a women who falsly acused a Father and he stayed with her, and did nothing ! Oh thats right he says HE WATCHED !

As far as I'm concerned he is getting what he deserves now.

Oh and what an unappreciate self centered dick he is too.

all I got was a TNX after writing him pages of hard learned advise.

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-06 11:42:35

Ken Har's own words say

"i watched several times ex filed complaints against her ex husband she would lie and say he threatened her then she would run and get order of protections against him she is control freak. one of the times he sat in jail she rented a truck her and her kids went to his house and removed all his good furniture she felt she had a right to do that cause he owed alot of back child support. he finaly commited suicide in 2004"

Ken get your story straight -Did you contact the police and tell them she was making false allegations ? Did you bail him out of jail or did you help her steal from him ? How did you stand up to her ?

The guys in this site have been through an unexpected hell, you admit to getting a very clear warning.

Don't expect to get any empathy from most of these guys now.

Hope you learned that if you play with fire- you are going to get burned.

I don't wish you anything but peace in your future - seems like you have been through a lot.

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-06 11:55:31

What do I think ?

Sounds like you are considering the BIOTC. The Judge will look favorably on that,

and yeah you are right it was starting to sound like a Jerry Springer show.

Don't be suprised if the GAL doesn't let you get off that easy and don't be surprised if your x doesn't want to give up the 604 (b) since she probably knows your education level and knows you would test poorly under the best of situations.

If she goes for it, the best part will be that you will have an opportunity to re-conect with your child.

Please give this more thought, and prayer before actually signing something in court.

Wally

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 12:45:50

Wow!  I had no idea any of this craziness would come up. 

Ken, why you never mentioned getting stabbed?  ... why you did not stand up for your ex's ex when you thought she was lying about him?  Is your story for real or are you making it up?  How could you let a woman lie about her poor ex-husband and drive him to suicide?  This sounds very unbelievable and yes, Jerry Springer does come to mind.

Don't you think that forcing your daughter to speak to you on the phone every week or two will make things worse in her eyes?  Especially if you and your ex are telling her bad things about each other.  In my experience - a child who is FORCED to do something like that, will only be too happy to never have to speak to you again when she is old enough.  Phone visits will only alienate her further.

If you are a gambling man, why not just put $5000 on the roulette wheel (or the 604b) and let it spin?

Or.... just save your money.  Ask your ex if you can be relieved of your right to pay your ex anymore child support.  Save the money for when your little girl is old enough to start hating her mom for taking you away from her.  That's when your daughter will want to re-connect with you - not on forced telephone visits, where she will only be counting the minutes until she can hang up the phone on you for good.

Your ex will be the winner if you still have to pay her and only get phone visits.  You will be a double-loser then.  She will have your money and she will know the little girl is miserable every time the phone rings.  The little girl is brainwashed, don't forget.  They grow out of it in their early teens during their rebellious stage. 

 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 13:28:23

You want to father your daughter.  It is not going to happen no matter what.  You are too late and she doesn't know you as her daddy.  Period.

Phone calls, 604b, therapeutic visits - none of this will change the fact that she does not know you.  You are a stranger to her.  Period.

Until she is a teenager or at least a few years older, she will be in fear of you.  Period.

If forced - She will hear you on the phone, but will never listen.  Period. 

If forced - She will see you for therapeutic visits, but will be waiting for the moment she can walk away and then she will dread the next time she has to see you, with trepidation.

This is the situation you are in.  It happens.  It's not unusual.  It's what happens when we are irresponsible adults, having children with someone we are not married to.  You have created a situation where a child is born without the benefit of a mommy & daddy family.  You can't change that.

Is your daughter in a good family now?  Does she seem happy?  Is your ex's fiance a good person?  Maybe she is already in the best situation and everything that you are doing is creating ugliness and fear. 

Think about it Ken.  Maybe your ex is in a good, healthy  relationship now and she is a good loving mom to your daughter. 

Can you give up this ugly fight for now and let your daughter live in peace while she is in this very important stage of her life?  Do you love her enough Ken? 

Can you let her grow up without the stress that the courts are putting you, your ex and your daughter through? Do you love her enough to do that?

If not, keep fighting.  Your daughter will grow up hating you.

Sorry, but that is the way it is.  Period. 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 13:51:47

Exactly what I'm saying. 

Let her remember the good times.  Little girls never forget their daddies.

Being forced to visit you, by phone or supervised will make her remember bad times. 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 13:58:29

Oh and Ken...

This is something you should know.

BIOTC = Best Interest of the Child

Think it over, no matter how painful. Do you love her enough to consider the BIOTC?

She'll still be your daughter and can re-connect when she is older. Haven't your other kids done that too?

Does she seem happy in her new family?

Do you Ken, love her enough? Pray about it.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 14:19:03

Yeah I know what you mean!  It is like they are being kidnapped, but the court is going to look at this differently.  The kidnapper is her own mother.  This is her family - not some stranger!  You are now the stranger. 

You brought a child into this world without the benefit of a normal family.  It sucks but that's the way it is.  The system is what it is and we are stuck with it.  No changing the system... not until we all get together and fight for our rights.  

Until then, what are you doing that is in the BIOTC?   

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 14:49:36

Sorry Ken. that sucks!!!!

It sounds like your relationship was a toxic one, to say the least.  Hope it's better with your new fiance.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-06 17:23:32

So Ken, where does that leave me?  What do you think I should do about my situation?  I can't see my little girl, I lost my job, I'm losing my town-house and my RV, I have bad credit and I'm in debt for the rest of my life.  WHen I apply for a job, they run a credit check on me and somehow just don't hire me.  My mom says I should give up.  Should I keep fighting?  Who will pay?  Should I offer to take the 604b again?  WHere will I get the money?

Ken, you are the luckier one.  You have someone to love you.  WHy don't you ask her what she thinks you should do?   She is someone who loves you, someone you can trust.... talk to her about it and decide.  She cares so much for you.  I wish I had someone like that.

 

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-07 09:00:24

Hi Rick

You are not alone, this is a new thing with the credit rating companies flagging all child support judgments. Many men are now having a difficult time getting hired because of a child support judgment showing up on their credit report. I personally find it unconstitutional that employers now can run a credit check on you. Why do they think you are applying for the job ? How can we pay our debts now if employers are only hiring workers who don’t have child support judgments ? I understand what is happening , the companies don’t want to deal with the expense of payroll having to deal with our court situation. Now the higher end jobs are not even excepting applicants who have any problems on their credit report even just late payments.

I am outraged by all the unconstitutional stuff that is going on out there. But even more outraged at how the general public doesn’t care when it’s happening to a person who has been ACCUSED (not found guilty) of child sexual abuse. Like Jake said child molesters (and those falsely accused of it) are hated more then murders.

Good Luck

I know your choices for employment have been limited, and in this market we need ever option.

My advise to you is to join a support group in your area, and net work with other Dads, you may end up meeting your next boss there.

Wally

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-07 10:53:11

Thanks Ken Har and Wally for your support. I'm just feeling so much better about everything, being able to talk to someone who understands.

Ken, I'm 42. My daughter is 8. I was with her mom for the first two years of her life, not married unfortunately, and that is what is making this worse for me. Her mom, my ex fell in love with her rich boss and now they're married with a nice house, making a cute little family for my daughter. Now that they have their new family, I am an inconvenience and apparently my little girl is happier without my visits. It makes me cry sometimes that she is getting along so well without me in her life.

I used to be able to visit her until three years ago. But then, my ex must have gotten tired of seeing me, I guess, and accused me of molestation. It didn't happen! I then tried to get visits through the court system and that is how I ended up in the mess that I'm in.

I'm an accountant, I am embarassed to admit, and I stupidly borrowed money against my town-house to pay for the lawyers and the 604b series. Then the housing market took a downward spin as we all know and the bank cut my line of credit, which I was going to use to pay off my RV and the lawyers and psychologists. Now I can't pay my bills and I'm screwed. I'm losing everything I've worked so hard for and I can't get a job because of my credit report.

When I apply for a job they run the credit check, criminal check, they check your driving record and then finally they want professional references. I understand the criminal record check and the references, but why the driving and credit checks for an accounting position? Crazy world. I think I've been blacklisted or something because of how I tested on the 604b.

Also, when I had therapeutic visits the psychologist didn't like the way I played dolls with my daughter. It was so awkward to play with her knowing that everything I did was being scrutinized. I think the Dr. was picking up on me being uncomfortable and took that as meaning that I was a bad guy or something.

My mom loves my daughter but thinks I should drop the case because of how hard this is on a child and my mom says my daughter is better off in a normal family with a mom and dad, married, living under one roof than having to leave the comfort of her home to have to visit me. My mom is very angry at me for putting my daughter through this!  She is a good Christian woman and thinks that kids need a traditional family.  

So Ken & Wally.... what do you think? Am I being selfish, just thinking about my own feelings in trying to force my daughter to see me? I think she must miss me somehow. I think her step-dad is an ok guy and is probably nice to her, but don't I have a right to be a part of her life? Don't my feelings count or do they just care about my daughter and whether she is happy and well adjusted with her new dad??

Oh.... another big problem.... I haven't been paying child support. I know that looks bad but my ex doesn't need it and I just don't have it right now, especially after paying for this whole mess.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-07 11:05:13

I am sitting here crying right now..... what a relief to just tell my story again.

It's so sad, it is like my daughter is wanting to break up with me, doesn't want to see me anymore, and I am trying to force her to love me again like she used to.

I'm ashamed to admit that I am sobbing now.

Is it better for her if I let this go until she is old enough to understand? 

Is my mom, her grandma right?

Please ....

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-07 14:05:14

Rick

Doesn't your Mom miss her granddaughter ?

She should file for visitation of her granddaughter, they grant that now. You should just back away out of the picture till it dies down. Let your Mom be the bridge that will in the future- bring you back together with your daughter.

No -don't take another 604 b- honestly even if you do really well they won't admitt it now- since you did so poorly on the first one- they'd be afraid you'd sue. They all stick together.

The credit thing is more likely due to the child support arrearage being documented on your credit report. Wally's right -it's a new and very disturbing trend employers are now using. They just don't want the hassle of employees personal problems so if they have two people applying for the same job they run the check and pick the one with out all this crap. I understand everyone is looking out for them selves. I don't know about any 604 b evaluator black list- but I wouldn't be surprised.

Justice we don't need any stinken Justice - It not my America any more !

Kens right Rick - since you are not working just let her file a "Rule to show cause" and you then will have the right to a FREE Lawyer, who will defend you and get your support amended or put on hold until you do get a job.

If she has a rich husband they should just let him adopt her, and let you give up your rights - which are only to PAY any way- you then can still reunite when she gets older-  If the courts terminate your rights against your will that is on your record and could hurt you in the future -  but when it's done voluntarally, it is just like a Mom who gives birth and can't care for the baby so she voluntarally allows an adoption- NO SHAME THERE and its not a negitive on your record. The system just needs to know who is going to be responsable for this child - because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE..

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-07 15:42:00

Yes my mom misses her. She is heartbroken about all of this and mostly mad at me. She was mad that I was living in sin with my ex and then that we brought a child into our sinful un-married home. She thinks I deserve what I'm going through because I have had sex with and moved in with a few girlfriends over the years. She is so old-fashioned that she actually thinks I should have stayed a virgin until I was married. Unbelievable. Not that it is even possible to live by those rules these days, but actually if I had, of course, she is right, I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in now.

So, if my daughter is reflecting the brainwashing she is getting, what do I do for her, and in her best interest?????

My mom says that if I really loved my daughter enough, I would give up on this because it's tearing my daughter apart, and my mom says that I can always try to contact my daughter when she is 12. My mom has spoken with her pastor and they have it all figured out.

But I am in agony and I am so hurt about this.

Should I stop thinking about my own selfish feelings and listen to my mom and her pastor?

Frustrated..........

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-07 15:44:03

And thanks Ken for sharing your outrage.  We need to all come together so that we can make a difference.  This country is what we make it.  We are the people, we are the government.  We have to step up to the plate and stop wishing for change.  We need to make it happen!

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-07 18:06:46

I hate to be the one to pop your bubble - again Ken But there are only a hand full of guys on this site, and most of us have "child sexual abuser" typed after our names for life. So I don't think you are going to get many takers on that newspaper artical.

 Plus I'm sure most of the guys on this site are still wondering ---what you actually did, to stop your x from filing false charges against her x. It's kinda hard to trust you Ken, you say the guy was innocent and you stood by and watched her press charges against him, and he KILLED himself over it !

 Ken our goal is to support men who are being falsly accused, and help them not make the mistakes we have made.

Not to draw attention to our selves in this judgemental world.

My class action suite is going to be done only after much reserch has been done and all parties involved will have their privacy protected.

 Ken you haven't been through what we have yet- some of us are posted on web sites warning our neighbors of what monsters we are. You are new to this. I appreciate your energy, go donate your time in a childrens hospital...your luckly you still can...we can't

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-07 22:19:41

Ken, your upbringing reminds me of my own.  I had a good foundation and Christian love was taught, but I thought I knew what was best for me and did what I wanted.  My parents, (Dad has passed) were so disappointed in me and my mom is still hurting from some of my choices and now she feels I have just passed on the consequences, that I should be paying, onto my daughter. 

I can totally relate about sowing the seed into bad soil.  I have never built a proper foundation before going head-on into a relationship.  Look what we have done to our lives and the lives of the ones we love.  Look where all of this has gotten us.  I am 42 years old and have one daughter that I am in the process of losing, a town-house that is going to be lost in a matter of weeks, a mom who is so hurt and distraught by my choices..... 

How do I start over again at 42 and how do I begin to make better choices in life?  It's impossible.  My life is hopeless.  I wish I could just stop living sometimes.

And what should I do about my daughter? 

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-08 00:22:03

Looks like I might of been the only one that went away this weekend. I just got back, I went fishing with my brother. I thought I'd sign on and see if anyone wrote - wow - Jake must be happy this site is busy.

I'm trying to catch up - so ....

Frank- I'm glad I could help with your hot line- I feel real good about that project and will be e-mailing you more info. soon.

Wally- What a huge undertaking , the class action suit is, this may actually make a differance - and I know you have a lot of time on your hands.

Ken -Did you fire your lawyer ? Has your step daughter gone to the  evaluator and taken that lie detector test yet ?  Did you chicken out and go to the evaluator like your lawyer wanted you to do ?

Also  tell me more about this thing Wally's going on about -were you didn't report your x's false report against her 1st. x ? I'm trying not to judge. Did you really know he was innocent and do nothing ? tell me it isn't so.

Rick and Ken- you both should start a church , Call it the "Church of the falsly accused".  Pass out invites a court. I'm not even kidding.

Glad to be back - I did have a great time , but seeing my brother with his kids made me sad.

 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-08 07:37:50

Thanks Ken.... I'll think about what you said.  The thought of giving up makes me feel like a quitter. But, the thought of continuing the fight makes me feel hopeless. 

I don't want to keep breaking God's heart, as you put it.  You are so right - that is what I've been doing with all of this, breaking God's heart. Time to do the right thing.  I'll let you know how it goes. 

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-08 07:54:32

Oh but you are wrong Ken, and your lawyer (you didn't fire him), is sadly mistaken if he doesn't think the evaluator is going to give that a lot of weight, and the evaluator has the ear of the Judge.

Remember what this thread started with - FALSE ACCUSATIONS WORK ! You just don't seem to get it yet.

I remember when I believed that justice would prevail. That was many years of support checks ago and only one very sad visit ago.

Prepare your self emotionally for this Ken. Stop living in a daze.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-08 08:06:48

Hey Rick ,

You already tested poorly with the evaluation , and the evaluator reported that to the Judge, right ? Now you are considering giving up ? What do you mean ? Is your x allowing you to give up your rights ? Including your right to pay support ? How old are your kids ? Are they distant from you now, so supervised visits didn't work ? I'd try to read through this thread but I think this might be easier.

My thoughts on you being a quiter - You did your best, and if you can walk away from this with your income intake instead of have half of it taken away.

You can prepare to be ready for the day you are rejoined. I don't know as much about God as you do but I do remember a story about a child who came home and the father had a big party for him after he had been gone along time. Start planning the party, don't focus on the empty days but instead plan for the future and stay healthy.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-08 08:28:23

Could some body tell Ken that his lawyer will tell him what ever he has to to keep the money coming.  I WAS YOU KEN !

Stop and look at what your lawyer has done for you so far.

Are you any better off now then when you hired him ? Is he any better off ? Is his friend the GAL any better off ? Is his friend the court evaluator any better off ? Pretty soon your x is going to be way better off.

I thought I was doing the right thing fighting too- but as unfair as it is- this system already knows who is going to win. It isn't some one with "PERVERT" writen on his forehead (sorry but that is how the whole court looks at us). It isn't someone who never married the Mom. It isn't some one who the child doesn't want to see. It really isn't some one who hasn't already been paying support. Don't walk away from this -- RUN Ken.

Wake up !  It's not to late for you.

Are you sure she's not building her case against you now as you sit here typing to us. I can't believe you have termination of rights on the table, just like I did. I thought "No way !" I wish I knew then what I know now. That being on the table only makes us look more like monsters to the Judge, so he sides with her any way and you pay for nothing FOREVER, and like Rick said the kid ends up dreading to talk to you and ends up hating you more. There is NO easy ansewer.

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Posted By: Craig
Date: 2008-07-08 08:40:40

Hey JohnH -

this guy Ken is a peice of work- very frustrating trying to get him to under stand.

I wish I knew then what you are sharing too, I had to walk into the court like a sheep being led to the slaughter but they all thought I was the big bad wolf, because my x put the wolf fur over me, My lawyer didn't remove the fur - like he should of - to show the court that I  was really a lamb.

Now I'm just slaughtered- in ever way

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-08 09:12:25

Nice job Craig - putting it into the form of a childrens story.

Now do you get it Ken ? Rick I know you get it !

 BTW Rick - has your x even said she would even let you give up your rights ?

Once she gets used to that money flowing in, and since the courts labeled you a risk already ,so you don't get the other rights, there is no reason for her to let you give them up. I'd be surprised if she did.

You should of never taken that test - once you get labeled it is all down hill.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-08 11:14:00

Hi Wally, yes my ex said she would let me give up my rights and she doesn't even want me to pay her anything. I haven't been paying her since I feel like she doesn't need my money anyway. Her husband is wealthy, so me paying her would only make me very poor and wouldn't make much difference to them.

I just can't think right now. I'm getting more and more mixed up the more I try.

I hear you guys and your stories - doesn't anybody have a good ending here? WTF?

I hear Ken reminding me that I am God's child, and that I've been disappointing Him.

I hear my mom and her wanting me to let my daughter live the next couple years in peace.

I hear my lawyer saying to keep fighting.

I hear my own heart not wanting to give up and be the loser in this fight! Not wanting my ex to win!!!!!!

Thank you all for sharing your stories, but I just need to think about it -- and think of my daughter too.

 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-08 11:25:46

And John Henry, thanks for reminding me of the Bible story of the prodigal son.  Maybe something like that is in my future - only I feel like the prodigal dad.  :-/   Oh well, life goes on, doesn't it?

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-08 13:35:55

You guys almost have me believing you, and I can see you almost have convinced yourselves too. I'm sure maybe 1/2 of you are for real. But the other half of you sound like my childs abuser, with all your God this and justice that. I can see right through you and I feel like I know you. My childs abuser has not repented of the sin of sexual immorality either, he took her inocense and trust and used her for his own sexual gradification. The Bible clearly warns against doing any harm to a child , but sexually abusing a child is the greatest sin of all. God does judge!  He judges all who take advantage of widows or orphans, and sexually abuse children. You need to truly REPENT instead of just acting innocent. Are you so stupid to think that God does not know the truth- you can't fool him. You will burn in hell for not doing right by these children- leave them alone, say you are sorry to them, and TRULY REPENT to GOD !

You are going through hard times RIGHT ? Did you ever stop to think that your HELL is Here on Earth, because you have not asked GOD honestly to forgive you from the sick things you did do!

It is OK, there is forgivness, but not until you TRULY repent and stop acting innocent. YOU WILL BE JUDGED HARDER for it. Is your world not upside down now ?

Try it today - just start by being honest with your self- that is the first step to healing- You will see if you truly repent and ask for Gods blessings on these children- NOT your agenda.  God will start making your life a little easier- YOU RIGHT NOW are being punished for not only the sexual sin with a child, but for lieing to your self and most importantly lieing to your FATHER !

For those of you who have been falsly acused - thank you for allowing me to vent to those who are guilty, I just know that if they REPENT they will find forgivness and also Forgive themselves. Right now they hate themselves and are just looking for false confirmation that they are ok - but they deep down inside do remember the SIN-

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE !

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-08 14:08:55

Thanks Terry - well said!

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Posted By: terry
Date: 2008-07-08 20:19:30

Ken-

Has she accused you of something ? Has she falsly accused you ?

Are you the typical abuser who pionts his finger at his victim and says it was her fault ? If she is refusing your money, I think she  in her heart believes and probably knows of your guilt, it seems to me that she is actually doing her job protecting her child. I just can not believe any one would with hold the other parent with out good cause.

Take your self out of the story so you can see it better- OK, now ask yourself if you had custody of your child and were sure some one did what she seems very sure that you did. would you want your child to have any contact with that person , or would you keep your child safe from this person ?

OK now comes truth time-If you did what she thinks you did- I think you should admit it, and agree to councling, she may forgive a truly repentant heart.

Jeff-

My story is so draining that I don't have the energy to repeat it tonight, it makes me cry to recall how I put my child in a dysfunctional envirorment with a sexual deviate. I may tell you my story when I'm feeling stronger.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-08 21:48:56

We all have our stories, don't we? Terry, thanks for putting some truth in this.

If we take ourselves out of this picture and think that maybe our exes actually think we may be guilty..... NO WONDER THEY ARE BEING SO HARD ON US! I never looked at it like this.

And if any of us has even 1% culpability, we should really agree to counseling and seek forgiveness with a truly repentant heart.

Maybe the fact that my ex doesn't want my money means she actually might think I am guilty of this.

More thinking for me.......... more praying.

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-09 05:14:09

Ken

I thought that I did ansewer your request for advise. I advised you to reolise where your x may be coming from, and to understand why she may not be interested in the exchange of money for allowing her daughter to speak to her abuser. Since she in her heart does truly believe you to be the peson she is accusing you of, how could she allow any contact with you. Espeically if you have not repented and have not sought any help. But instead point your finger at her calling her the evil one.

We are all evil, true, but we must all repent. If we steal something as valuable as a childs inocence, and then have the nerve to speak badly about that child we are destended to HELL, and no kidding yourself is going to make that go away.

I am really not here to judge you Ken or any of the guys on this site. I am mearly here to remind you all to stop lieing to yourself and to God. If you are guilty- the least of your problems will be this silly earthly court. It's your souls I was concerned with. God doesn't need an evaluator to see inside you.

My childs abuser acts  judgemental and acts like he was "father of the year" so since I know for a fact what he did to my daughter, I can not forgive an unrepentant heart. My advise to you is that your x may be in the same boat, or she may be some one who could never forgive. I don't know her heart. But this isn't about her. This is between you and your Father in heaven.

You say OK now I want to do good by my kid- and you assume your x should just say fine I forgive the past, but you haven't even asked for forgivness have you ? Maybe your x will let you talk to the child. I just know that I wouldn't want my abuser to be allowed any access to any child, especially since he has not repented.

You ask what gives me the right to preach repentance ? The Bible does. You say I am acting like a victim. This is NO act.

I have been acused of making a false allegation right to my face from the man who knows that I know of his guilt. It actually makes me sad, because I know this time on Earth is nothing but a test.

The fact is that Psychologist are aware that this claim of "false allegations" being common place, is a myth, and that they are all to used to the abusers themselves acting like the victim and they know that actually makes the abuser MORE DANGEROUS.

That is why the courts are listening to them and are protecting the children.

My x actually used some of these internet lessons in court in an attempt to sway the court into thinking "false allegations are epidemic", that is how I found this site.

 The fact that you don't want to be evaluated is questionable to me and will be to the courts.  It makes me wonder if you have a record with the law or with child sevices that would be brought to light. Because these evaluators dig deep in to your history not just your head.

I'll be more clear with my advise Ken- Worry more about God judging you then some Earthly Judge.

Repent  & Don't make demands from your victims.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-09 05:40:48

Your right Terry

This is between God and us.

My God is a forgiving God and says "Judge not and yea shall not be Judged".

Thank you for your concern, but can you let your mind wander out of your own situation, and reolise that there are inocent men (and women) who are being denied their children based on false allegations and children are being turned against one of their parents unfairly.

 Who is the victim now?

Yes we all know that our true Judge is God and that this earthly court can not compared with the one we will go to in the end. But we need to still get up each morning and go to work and get through another day of pain. We need to be able to talk to someone who knows what we are going through.

I will even admit that you are probably right about half of these guys being guilty. But , I'm assuming inocense until guilt is proven, and I am being kind to all the writers on this thread and trying not to judge. But yes some times I get upset because it is the real monsters out there, who are capable of such dirty acts with a child, that make it hard on those who are falsly accused.

I hope you are really sure of what you say your x did, because ..

....My God judges those who  persecute the inocent.

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-09 06:19:35

It's better to light a candle than
to curse the darkness.
-- Chinese Proverb

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-09 07:51:52

Wow..... this is all a little too much drama for me, Guys!  I think I'll bid you all adieu and wish good luck to you, of course in the BIOTC.

~Rick~ 

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-09 07:52:05

Seems I hit a personal spot - I was just commenting that all sinners need to repent - your x wife and clearly YOU need to repent. In your own admissions here you are guilty of abuse if all that went on. I'm so sorry your x forced you to have sex with her. Yeah right??? And as far as my believing your bull shit about police not following up on an abuse report that you made against your x because you begged them not to. Not in this life time !

You are showing your crazyness Ken.

Repent for your own sake, and pure honest repenting between you and your Father. Don't get rightous, when clearly you have nothing to be rightous about !

Did you say arrearage payment ? Oh so your also a dead beat.

KEEP KIDDING YOURSELF , and you will go to hell, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Is God blessing your life now Ken ? No ? Oh, because God does bless those who are persecuted for rightous sake. So if you are not feelings His blessings in your life , you may want to step back and be honest with your self and stop pointing your finger at others.

 

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-09 10:11:14

Ken you certainly are taking my advise for all to repent, as a personal attack. I invite you to read my words again and imagine that you are saying them to some one else. Then stop YOUR self rightous ACT. I am not throwing stones, I am mearly reminding believers of what they all ready know. They must be honest with GOD.

I did take your invitation to read your postings -

I started from the begining of this blog - I note that a "Kim Harmantas" began and then a "Mr. Kim Har" signed in and now a "Ken Har".

Hmmmm..It seems that you have really  Evolved.

Now I understand,  you don’t really believe in GOD because you are the epitome of an evolutionist.

For those with a 5^th grade education

( of which I’d ask for a refund- because most 5^th. Graders are smarted then you Kim Harmantas, Kim Har or Ken Har - who ever you really are??)

Here is a definition of all the BIG words-

EPITOME meaning : highly representative

EVOLUTIONIST meaning: belief in the theory of biological evolution

EVOLUTION meaning: process by which new and different organisms develop as a result of changes in genetic material

No wonder you don’t understand my true concern for all those who are in denial of their own sins,  souls.

REPENT !  meaning: to feel regret about a sin or past actions and change your ways or habits

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-09 10:39:32

WTF-

I am not surprised that this sites thread has turned judgmental. That is why I am working round the clock on a HOT LINE for those who have been falsely accused of sexual acts with a child. There should be a place where these victims of false charges can go for support.

I am taking this thread off my “favorites list”

Thank you to the co-sufferers I have meet, and for your support and encouragement. I too Nick do not have time for this drama and judgment.

Wally and JohnH I have your e-mails and will keep in touch with you and I will let you know when my site is up.

Any one else interested in this HOT LINE just e-mail me @ FrankLee967@yahoo.com

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-09 10:52:53

One more comment before I sign off for good,

(Ken /Kim ?) ( Har /Harmantas ?) (Mr./Mrs.?)

what ever your name is or what ever sex you are ?

I already advised you to not do the Jerry Spinger thing - you  make your self look crazy if not guilty. I'm not being judgement - I'm just giving well meaning advise.

Remember the Judge probably had a stay at home Mom and he probably married his high school sweetheart- he will judge your disfunction- and will be more likly to throw the book at you, for any thing your x says you did. Sexual abuse ? Not paying child support ? or any thing else that she comes up with.

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Posted By: Fritz
Date: 2008-07-09 11:35:58

What a B*TCH!  Someone pissed her off! 

Thanks for the address Frank, think I'll stick to email to keep the riff-raff out.  GEEZ!

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-09 20:23:40

Hello, What the hell was that all about ?

Does any one still looks at this thread after all that "Wrath of God" crap Terry was force feeding us ?

Because,  I have some great news to share !

I have been contacted by a very reputable law firm who's expertise is Fathers rights, and they are going to help me get my class action suit going. This is going to be open to all the states , so we will be busy studing different State laws. This suit is going to be covering all the different types of evaluations that use Psychologist , Psychiatrists, or Clinical social workers. If you've just tuned in our plan is to find these test unconstitional, as they go against our 5th amendment right to not incriminate our selves. We should not be forced to testify against ourselves, and that is what these test do.

Makes me feel good to be helping others in this fight for justice.

I'm going to bed with a smile on my face tonight, first time in a long time.

Wally

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-10 00:36:59

Wally... what's your email.  I've scanned back and can't find it.

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Posted By: wally
Date: 2008-07-10 02:02:03

My e-mail is-

WallyWilson@rocketmail.com

Rick- I actually never gave it on this site before -

Frank only had it because I had e-mail him before.

If that self rightous bitch e-mails me - I guess I can just block her.

 I've had enough of that crap in my life.

Wally

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-10 06:02:39

Good Luck Wally - Great idea

I'm not surprised that they want in on the class action suit.

They will make an even bigger name for them selves when they win. This is really big Wally !

Maybe I'll get some of my money back too

But more importantly maybe You'll make a real difference in another father and child's relationship, by helping keep these evaluators out of our heads.

I'll e-mail you to keep up with what you are doing -

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Posted By: Jake
Date: 2008-07-10 08:52:45

With all due respect, I have also been going through my own nasty divorce and custody battle.  My attorney asked for a 604(b) evaluation after my ex filed for me to have supervised visitation.  After nearly a year, the evaluation was completed, but she then refused to pay her 1/3 share of the $23K bill knowing full well as soon as the evaluation was complete I would get increased visitation.  After bringing contempt of court charges, she was ordered to pay, and yesterday I received the evaluation.

My ex wife was found to have tried to alienate our children from me and was found to not be fit to have sole custody.  Custody is recommended to be joint with a number of conditions set up that if she does not comply with, custody can be changed to me having sole. 

Just a little background, my ex left when she was nine weeks pregnant, then refused to let me see our oldest daughter, necessitating an Order of Protection against her, then tried to keep me from seeing our baby in the hospital despite a court order, and resisted letting me see our baby after she was home despite a court order.  I found out we were having a girl from the 604(b) evaluator, found out her name from my attorney, and had to get a court order to be a part of her baptismal ceremony.

I feel deeply for all of you loving fathers here and my prayers are with you always.  I agree the court system is set up to be biased against men and favors women regardless of the false allegations they say.

My advice from my ordeal is to DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.  Someone told me that early on and it has made all the difference.  Although it will be like a second job, keep detailed notes after every visit of dropoff/pickup times, anything said between you, your ex, friends, and family, and all activities you engaged in with your children, and don't make disparaging comments in front of the children.  TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS and SAVE ALL E-MAILS as well.  Also, watch the "tone" of your e-mails. 

This is your only chance of fighting back against these terrible lies.  If this sounds to you like you have to prove your innocence, as every father here knows, that's exactly what you have to do.

Things are working out in my favor because I did these things and was able to prove to the 604(b) evaluator that my ex was lying and doing everything she could to keep me from seeing our children.

I think in the face of these allegations, fathers have to get an evaluation, be honest with the evaluator, and make your best case as sad is that is to say.

In Cook County, IL, I recommend Dr. Jonathan Gamze and Dr. Goldstein as 604(b) evaluators.

My question is, if my wife does not like the recommendations of the 604(b) evaluation, what are her options?  I believe she has only two options to fight back with: 1) subpoena the evaluator to question him why he made the recommendations, which will cost her his time plus her attorney's time and likely not result in any change to the recommendations, or 2) get a 604.5 evaluation, which she will be solely responsible for paying for.  I don't believe either option is very appealing, especially since the 604(b) was $23K.

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Posted By: Wally
Date: 2008-07-10 10:41:11

Thank you Jake.

I'm glad your evaluation went well, mine didn't and I was being honest. I agree that at this time if you are ordered to get a 604 b or any evaluation, that as long as your not guilty of what you are being accused of, it is probably OK to cooperate. I'd still fight it.  But if it came to a point where it was jail or test - I'd take the test. I'd avoid being put in the situation at all cost, because once the evaluator red flags you- it is a money pit from that point on that you can't get out of.

Laws change and it is my hope that this will change too. I feel that if some one wants to accuse you of something, that they should have to prove it ! Just like any other crime. The courts shouldn't be allowed to make us pay, so some one can try to get into our heads to prove us guilty. No other crime is like that.

I understand the forensic , and back ground check to check your documented history dealing with children. This makes sense, I believe they test potential adoptive parents this way too. That should always be in place.

I would be all for keeping that part of an evaluation, just not neuropsychological assessments, personality testing, or testing for any psychosis.

Hopfully in my life time things will change.

Great advise Jake - Document everything and needless to say pay your support on time and keep your noise clean !

Jake you did answer your own question in the end of your blog-

The Judge is going to go with what the evaluator says, she can try to get it reversed but it's not likely and it's very costly, as you mentioned.

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Posted By: Carmen Rodriguez
Date: 2008-07-10 13:51:30

Our prisons are full of people who proclaim their innocence. Of course, some of the prisoners may well be innocent, but as you can imagine, those whom are guilty are surely not about to admit it!

Yes, there are innocent dads whose ex-wives have filed false abuse charges, but again, the guilty dads are probably not about to admit it. They just may log on to this site, so that they can learn how to act innocent.

So, I will agree with Terry, that among you who are innocent and falsely accused, may be lurking some bad guys.

If you are guilty, you should at least admit it to yourself and to God. You need some help as well as God's mercy.

If you are innocent, I am sorry for all that you are going through and I admonish your exes if they have knowingly done such a thing to you. Also, I might add that it is possible that some of your exes may be mistaken and not be deliberately doing something so reprehensible.

One more note - I find it very hard to relate to a mom deliberately taking away a qualified, loving father from her children, no matter how acrimonious the divorce. That is why I do understand Terry's assumption that there are probably more cases on this site, where some of the guilty parties are joining in with this group, befriending the innocent dads, like wolves in sheeps' clothing.

To you, who are innocent, beware who you make friends with, on this site.

To you, who are guilty - ask forgiveness from your victims and especially from God.... and get some help, please.

 

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-10 20:12:28

Hey Jake

Wow ! Did you say your 604 b cost you $23K ? How much was the retainer ? You say you filed for contempt charges because she didn't pay her part ? I'm surprised they even tested you until it was paid in full, most don't , understandably.

Did she just make up her allegations out of the blue ? Is there any chance she actually believed her allegations ? Why would she want to do that to you? I know some women can just be hateful. I actually think my x really believed that I did what she acused me of, that made it harder for me, because I knew she actually ment well, as miss guided as she was. I'm glad things are going well for you.

You obviously had some things going for you that I did not. You were married to her, and you supported the family even through the split up. I lost my job and did not honor that responsability. So even though the evaluator voiced his concern about her trying to ailenate my child. He said that it would be hard for a parent to be positive about visits with some one she believed to be a pediphile. So the aillenation was understandable. But my not having a normal marriage, and my not  supportting the family swayed the Judge. Then after the supervised visits went poorly it was a shut case. No visits- not even phone.

You asked- if my wife does not like the recommendations of the 604(b) evaluation, what are her options?

Don't put the cart in front of the horse. The Judge only considers the 604 b's recommendations and he will put it together with everything else before him. So as long he is happy with you as far as being there for the kids, and paying support, he will give the evaluations a lot of weight, and if the visits are going well things should be fine. I know Dads who just had one of those key factors missing and that was it. So you could of looked good in the evaluation and she could have looked bad, but after a year of testing, if the children now don't want to see you, it could still be difficult. Hopefully your visits have been documented as good.

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-10 20:22:10

Hi Carmen

Thank you for your thoughts. I like to see things from other perspectives and must admitt that I do agree with a lot of what you say. But I try to assume inocense, that is the American way, last time I checked.

I will take your warning about who I make friends with, as you can see I have not provided my last name or my e-mail address. I guess you'll be OK .....there are a lot of Rodriguez' out there.

God Bless you Carmen

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-10 21:44:24

Hey Ken Har, Kim Har, or is it Kim Harmantas

Did you get a sex change? Is that why you sometimes go by Kim and sometimes go by Ken. Is that why your x (girlfriend /boyfriend/whatever) left you ?

I know that if you are having sexual identity issues -it can be hard to cope. I will pray that you find peace with your sexuality, and that you understand your x's judgement of your transexual ways.

I do not envy you having to face these issues. Don't make the mistake so many transexuals make....self hate is not the answer.

Find peace and seek forgivness, a non judgemental forgivness- Ken/Kim

1st you must humble your self before God- we are all sinners Kim/Ken, Your sin just seems to be judged more by the world. So you should keep this between you and God.

I'm sorry if I've picked on you sweetie,

 I just now reolised what cross you are bearing.

Have you had the opperation yet ?

My advise is that you except one of your identities be it the natural God given one or not. It is not healthy to be a female one min. and a male the next. You should choose one and stick with it.

In the long run you will be happier. Good Luck to you. Ken/Kim Har/ Harmantas

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-11 10:52:10

Ken,  don't let her get to you like this.  She's just trying to push our buttons.  She obviously has some deep issues that have nothing to do with any of us personally.  Hopefully she will just crawl back under the rock she came out of and we can go about our business.  Freaking psycho witch.  It takes all kinds, doesn't it?

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-11 11:28:34

Rick, "Ken" asked me to read over his postings so I did,

and it doesn't take a rocket scientist or even a 6th grader, to see that Kim Harmantas changed her name to Kim Har, and then changed her name to Ken Har.

I invite you Rick, to follow the begining of this thread and discover the same thing, that I did.

Just thought you should know who you are talking too.

I don't understand her anger towards me. I was trying to have empathy towards her obvious sexuality issues

I know that God does judge this, but I am just trying to help her/him find peace.

Terry

FYI- I am actually over weight, It kind of scared me that Kim/Ken knew that , but I am by no means old, I am only 31.

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-11 13:59:35

Terry,

Respectfully, how can you be so sure that there are not two people here with similar names? Just because someone has the same first 3 letters to their last name does not mean they are the same person. And even if it is the same person, that bears no weight on this individual's guilt or innocence, not that it's any of your business whether or not any of us are guilty. How dare you sit back and criticize anyone!

Also, by the way, the name "Kim" is on occasion, an androgynous name, so please don't just assume that he is a female. Check out what he is saying in his posts. He is speaking of an ex-female, the mother of his (biological) child. Doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to assume that Kim is most likely a man.

Please try to assume (correctly or not) that you are communicating with innocent people on this site and keep your judgements to yourself and about your own issues.

 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-11 20:45:52

I know Ken!!!  At first I really thought she was sincerely offering her heart and suggesting that the guilty repent!  Then she went nuts!  Whatever!  She can't do anything to hurt us Ken, so we should just ignore anything she writes and not ever respond to her.... or even read her posts.  Evil, deviate woman.

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Posted By: un named
Date: 2008-07-12 06:48:15

This is to all those who carry the heavy burden of guilt, and who are the wolves trying to blend in with this herd of truly falsely accused sheep.

You can free yourself of this burden, that is weighing you down. Do you remember ever doing something wrong as a child, and keeping it a secret? Something as simple as skipping school one day? Do you remember how your mind then could not focus because of fear of discovery.

You mind enters a state of PARANOIA when you try to cover a lie. Do you remember ever getting caught (red handed)doing something wrong, you’d have to listen to Dad or Mom preach, and maybe except some punishment, but then it was over. Dad and Mom had unconditional love and forgave you. Your mind then could focus on LIFE!

It is sad but true that some people are wired wrong and that for what ever reason being sexual with a child, gratifies them. Most of these miswired people know that it is wrong but can not control their desire. They then live their life caring the weight of paranoia, and some do carry guilt, while others try to kid themselves and believe that it wasn’t wrong to get sexual gratification with a child. Evaluators are trained to pick up on this mis-wiring of the brain. Take your evaluation, and like Jake said, “be honest,” admit your sin, free your self of the weight of guilt. I was not totally innocent, a lot of dysfunction went on when I was under my abusers control, so I was honest and explained it all from my heart to the evaluator, they study this stuff, so they saw through my abusers self righteous screen of innocence.

When your problem is detected, EXCEPT their help. But you must be honest.

Are you going through hard times ? Every day you are living a lie covering up your sinful nature, and even going on these sites trying to learn - How does a person who is falsely accused act?

Your whole life is being consumed by acting innocent and as some put it “playing the part of a victim”.

Some have Bible knowledge and some don’t. I am trying to enlighten those who don’t. The Bible clearly warns against doing any harm to a child , but sexually abusing a child is the greatest sin of all. God does judge! He judges all who take advantage of widows or orphans, and sexually abuse children. You need to truly REPENT instead of just acting innocent. Do not be so arrogant to think that God does not know the truth- you can't fool him. Some have fooled their 604 b evaluations, NO ONE FOOLS GOD.

You will suffer on Earth and burn in hell for not doing right by these children- leave them alone, say you are sorry to them, and TRULY REPENT to GOD !

For those who now know this but continue to live non-repentant lives,       your punishment is even worse. Repent and get off this track of denial. God can not bless your life if you are holding on to this lie. Your life will continue to be a burden until you free your self of your past sins.

Just like when you were a child, waiting for Dad’s judgment was always worse then the punishment it self, and once the lie was discovered you could let it go and look at life fresh with out that fear of discovery, taking control of your brain.

For those who are as someone put it “DEMONIC”, who live a lie, blame others, and kid themselves, who know God’s word and sometimes even preach Gods word., but sadly do not truly live it……

…..FEAR NOT AN EARTHLY EVALUATOR , for your days are numbered!

Is your world upside down now and nothing is going right for you?

Try it today - just start by being honest with your self- that is the first step to healing- You will see if you truly repent and ask for Gods blessings on these children- NOT your agenda. God will start making your life a little easier- YOU RIGHT NOW are being punished for not only the sexual sin with a child, but for lying to your self and most importantly lying to your FATHER !

PARANOIA-

1. distrust: extreme and unreasonable suspicion of other people and their motives

2. psychiatry psychiatric disorder: a psychiatric disorder involving systematized delusion, usually of persecution

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Posted By: un named /Terry
Date: 2008-07-12 08:21:29

Ken/Kim

You say un named is Terry (duh)

and "She is attacking men again"

Did you read my post?

Was it addressed to you Ken?

This is to all those who carry the heavy burden of guilt, and who are the wolves trying to blend in with this herd of truly falsely accused sheep

There you go, If you were inocent, you would be upset by these wolves, NOT BY THE SHEPERD!

Have a nice life,

Ken your hell will be here on Earth, until you truly repent!

 

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-12 09:47:05

Thanks Ken and Jeff.... I don't need this lunatic now. I'm checking into the hospital tomorrow morning for surgery. I have Chron's Disease which was manageable for many years. The stress of the last several months has made it impossible to live with!!! They are planning to possibly remove 1 foot of my small intestine. I am very nervous and worried about this. I may have to be on a special diet for the rest of my life. I hope to be released from the hospital after a week, maybe two. I hope you guys can carry on and fight the good fight while I'm gone.

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Posted By: Frank
Date: 2008-07-12 11:11:48

Terry-Thank you for addressing the issue of all the wolves in sheep’s clothing. That is a problem we deal with daily. Scary that such monsters are really out there, isn’t it. Makes me mad that the pedophiles sick sexual dysfunction is what makes the courts have to protect the children, even at the expense of a few innocent parents.

Come on guys- Terry is right. The problem does exists - pedophiles do exists and yes they do pretend to be innocent and yes, where better to learn about how to “ACT INNOCENT” then a site like this one.

Ken- your being so upset at Terry may come from your own issues, it seems that each time she reaches out to the guilty, that you react strongly, keep in mind not everyone is innocent. She did address her comment to the guilty, so I didn’t read it. Strange that you did.

Ken- I find all your postings, proof that you are in fact a very disturbed man, and I feel you probably to say the least are guilty of providing a VERY DYSFUNCTIONAL life for a child.

Stop and take a close look at your self, don’t assume that when some one is talking to the guilty, that they are talking to you. That does, show your lack of confidence in your own innocence Mr. Har.

As far as my thoughts on you taking the 604 b evaluation, as much as I know them to be unconstitutional, and don’t approve of them, I still believe that you should probably cooperate, and then take what ever advise they give you regarding continued counseling, before you try to parent. You owe that to your child and to your self. I understand you have a low education level, but that does not explain the personality disorders that are so clear in all your postings. Don’t get angry Ken, just giving well meaning advise.

Rick-Keep us posted on how you are doing and good luck at the hospital. Stress from visitation and custody issues does effect your health, I also had problem with my system, mine were ulcers.

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-12 11:50:26

Wow Ken, You are a HOT head, aren't you.

FACT- I never personally attacked you, but you have personally attacked me.

FACT- You say I only tell men to repent ? I clearly said your x should repent for forcing you to have sex in an earlier posting. (why was it that she had to force you? Don't you like grown up women?)

FACT- I never addressed my post to men or women, just the guilty.

FACT- Guilty pedophiles do go on to sites like this to learn how to act

FACT - I do not hate men, I don't even hate YOU, I am just trying to open eyes and save souls, as I have been called by God to do.

Ken, I am so sorry, if I misunderstood you and jumped to the conclusion that you were a transexual, it was your name changes, and when you said your x forced you to have sex, that made you come off a bit girly. HONEST MISTAKE. 

Rick- I will pray for you and I will have my whole Church pray for you. I can only imagine the stress that you must be going through.

 As stressfull as being falsly accused must be, we should still keep the guilty in our prayers as they must be going through a real personal hell.

We all need to repent and live the life God intended for us to live. NO JUDGMENT MENT BY THAT. Only a very guilty soul would take that as JUDGMENT.

 

 

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Posted By: Terry
Date: 2008-07-12 12:00:26

Jeff-

You can all ignore me, and you can call me a pathetic wackooo.

I guess if I'm going to be a WACKOOO, I'd want to be pathetic at it. BTW what is a WACKOOO (sounds like a rare bird)? Since I'm so pathetic at it, does that make you an experianced or an expert WACKOOO.

Go ahead IGNOR ME, But can you ignore GOD.

 How is your life going for you? Do you feel Gods blessings?

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-07-12 15:28:23

Thanks everyone for being so supportive about everything lately.  It's good to have you all as my friends.  Someday, hopefully we can meet under better circumstances.

Terry, I want to feel that you've got good intentions.  Hopefully you do, but I've got to say you do come on strong.  You are a recent fellow blogger and hadn't really taken the time to get to know any of us before you went off on your tangent.  We're a little more mellow here, so all I want to say is just take it easy on us.

Thanks everyone, I'll check back in when I get home from the hospital.  Good luck with everything. 

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Posted By: JohnHenry
Date: 2008-07-13 20:48:30

This is what I like to see, people helping people, and assuming inocence. Great advise as usual Wally.

How is the suit going?

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Posted By: Rick Spahn
Date: 2008-09-09 14:30:09

Hello again!  It's been awhile.  I've been recovering from my surgery.... really rough!  It's been almost 2 months and I'm still feeling very weak.  I was just wondering how you all are doing?  Does anyone have anything new to share?  Ken, I've been thinking of you.  Hope you're doing ok and feeling healthier. 

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Posted By: Jake Morphonios
Date: 2008-09-09 14:48:39

***************    ATTENTION   ******************

I AM THE AUTHOR OF THIS ARTICLE AND THE OTHER NOLAN CHART ARTICLES ON FALSE ABUSE ALLEGATIONS.

I PULLED THESE ARTICLES FROM THE PUBLIC DOMAIN FOR A PERIOD OF TIME IN THE HOPE THAT THE INDIVIDUALS ENGAGING IN DEBATES AND DISCUSSIONS IN THE COMMENT SECTIONS OF MY ARTICLES WOULD CEASE TAKE THEIR DISCUSSIONS ELSEWHERE.

I RESPECTFULLY REQUEST THAT THOSE OF YOU PARTICIPATING IN THESE DISCUSSIONS TO TAKE YOUR BUSINESS TO ANOTHER FORUM.  THE PURPOSE OF THE COMMENT SECTION BELOW MY ARTICLES IS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF MAKING COMMENTS THAT ARE DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE ARTICLE ITSELF.  PLEASE DESIST USING THE COMMENT SECTION FOR SUPPORT MESSAGES, DEBATES AND PERSONAL DISCUSSIONS REGARDING YOUR PERSONAL CASES OR CIRCUMSTANCES.  I RECOMMEND USING PERSONAL EMAIL OR CREATING YOUR OWN FREE YAHOO DISCUSSION GROUP IF YOU WISH TO TALK IN AN INTERNET FORUM. 

THANK-YOU,

JAKE MORPHONIOS

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Posted By: Gerald K
Date: 2008-09-22 15:56:30

Great article!  Thank you!

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Posted By: JeG2
Date: 2008-09-23 09:27:46

Stop bringing up all of your old, tiresome garbage.  Your story is getting boring!!!  Stop slandering the mother of your child.  You are sounding pathetic and your story is not believable.

Like you said yourself... "Cut to the chase!" Be an adult, take responsibility and just take the test! 

It's as simple as that. 

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Posted By: Jake
Date: 2008-09-29 09:19:41

I have a couple questions; some background on my situation is in my post from 7/10/08 above.

My case is still going on because my ex will do nothing and has done nothing other than file for divorce.  The case is 17 months old and she and her attorney have yet to respond to discovery properly served in July 2007, respond to any of my pleadings, respond to formal offers of statutory support and equitable settlement, respond to 20+ letters, and a bunch of phone calls to her attorney.  My ex has additionally failed to comply with all court orders, for which I have four Motions for Rule pending against her, including failing to make up court ordered visitation, failing to provide financial records as ordered, and failing to pay the 604(b) evaluator as ordered.  I also have a Motion for Default pending seeking sanctions against her attorney for failing to respond to discovery and failing to respond to all of my Petitions.

My pre-trial conference is in November 2008, which is over 18 months since my ex filed for divorce.  Thus my case is going to exceed the 18-month statutory limit for custody cases per Illinois Supreme Court Rule 922.

First question:  How much longer can this go on?  When does the judge have to act and rule on my Motions for Rule, Motion for Default, all my other Petitions, and the custody and divorce case itself?  My ex will do NOTHING, won't accept my offers of a 50% division of marital assets and statutory child support, and is clearly doing everything she can to drag our divorce out for as long as possible to hurt me financially.  By the Court failing to rule on anything for 17 months and not punishing my ex for ignoring all Court orders, the Court has emboldened her alienating behavior and allowed my ex to destroy what little remains of the marital estate.

Second question:  Can someone provide me with information on filing a complaint or grievance against a Court-appointed Child Representative? 

As my earlier post indicates, I have a 604(b) opinion that my ex was found to have tried to alienate our children from me and was found to not be fit for sole custody.  Also, this opinion was from a 604(b) evaluator that the Court-appointed Child Representative recommended after she told the Judge in my case and my attorney in September 2007 that we couldn't use the 604(b) evaluator we wanted to because he is "pro-Dad."  Obviously from that statement the Child Representative was biased against either me or perhaps all men from the very beginning of my case.  However, obviously from the 604(b), it didn't matter who the evaluator was because my ex was found to be an alienating mother, I was found to be a fit and proper parent, and my ex should not be granted sole custody.

So after the 604(b) came out, I felt my case was very compelling (and perhaps it is, we will see).  However, at the last court hearing the Child Representative stated she had "never disagreed with the 604(b) evaluator, but in this case she does", and argued passionately in front of the Judge that my ex should be granted sole custody.  By arguing for my ex to be granted sole custody, the Child Representative is acting directly contrary to the best interests of our children since the 604(b) evaluator, whom she appointed, recommended that it is in the best interests of our children my ex not be granted sole custody.  The 604(b) opined that if my ex were ever granted sole custody she would try to cut me out of our children's lives.

Fortunately, I believe the Judge in my case read the 604(b) and ordered temporary joint custody and that we cooperate in educational, religious, and medical decisions affecting our children.  Despite this order, my ex's alienating behavior has continued.  She was told at the hearing by the Child Representative "its going to be overnights" referring to visitation with our children and me eventually having overnights with them (they are both very young) and the 604(b) evaluator stated that our oldest "may be getting ready for overnights", which was dated April 2008 and it is now six months later, and "overnights should begin no later than age three", which would be in two more months.  However, my ex refuses to agree to overnights with our children (I have it in writing from her), didn't tell me about our daughter's dentist appointment until my daughter started telling me herself, and took our children out of the State of Illinois without asking me and without a Court order.

Clearly any unbiased third party should be able to see my ex is unwilling and unable to cooperate effectively and consistently in matters that directly affect the joint parenting of our children.

But wait, there's more.  You would think my case would not be clearly over now having temporary joint custody and a 604(b) opinion favorable to me and very unfavorable to my ex. 

However, as I mentioned before, our children are very young.  For about nine months my parenting time with one, but not both, of our children (I have always had my parenting time with our oldest at my house) was ordered to take place at my ex's parents' house, where she is staying because our youngest child was a baby.  After the Court ordered my ex to pay her share of the 604(b) fees after she refused to do so and the 604(b) was released, which was again unfavorable to her, she and her parents began videotaping me during my parenting times with our baby in her parents' house.  They later gave a copy of a DVD they made of my parenting times to the Court-appointed Child Representative.  At the last court hearing, despite the 604(b) and the Judge ordering temporary joint custody, the Child Representative used this DVD to threaten my attorney and I outside of the Court room with "supervised visitation for the rest of my life" for allegedly making disparaging remarks about my ex.

I never made disparaging remarks about my ex, I believe what I said was "if her behavior doesn't change, she's going to lose custody of these children", which was the recommendation of the 604(b).  I was just factually stating the evaluator's opinion, and I told this to my ex's parents, who had been ordered not to be present during my parenting times (yes, even in their own home), which they proceeded to violate on 44 separate occasions (Motion for Rule pending).

Further, the 604(b) evaluator noted that my wife herself had made disparaging comments about me directly in front of our children when we met with the evaluator.  When I informed the Child Representative of this, her response was "yes, but I heard this myself." 

Third and fourth questions:  Doesn’t the 604(b) matter?  Isn’t the 604(b) the expert and not the Child Representative?

I would again argue strongly that I did not make disparaging remarks about my ex, but even if I had, since we both have, it would seem to me the appropriate thing to do would be to warn us both and put it in an order that we are both enjoined from making disparaging remarks about the other party.

For what its worth, I’m well aware that what my ex did constitutes class 4 felony eavesdropping.  After I discovered the videotaping during one of my last parenting times at my ex’s parents’ house, my ex admitted in a police report that she and her parents were secretly videotaping me and recording sound during my parenting times inside her parents house to “build her case.”  I have not pressed felony charges against my ex and her parents because I don’t want it to impact the outcome of my custody case.

My attorney has subpoenaed the original DVD and all copies from the Child Representative, but we have yet to receive them.  The DVD is clearly inadmissible in my case according to State law, and my attorney has a Petition ready to be filed to block it from even being mentioned that it exists.

So to summarize, the Child Representative is aware that my ex has been found to have tried to alienate our children from me, has failed to comply with all Court orders, failed to respond to all Petitions and Motions, failed to respond to settlement offers, refuses to cooperate in matters affecting our children, committed felony eavesdropping, and tried to have me arrested on multiple occasions for such trivial matters as asking to see my children on Father’s Day, taking our baby outside on a sunny, warm day in May, and parking in her parents’ driveway, yet still argues for my ex to be granted sole custody, is using an illegally-obtained DVD to threaten me with supervised visitation, and is ignoring a subpoena to turn over the DVD to my attorney.

Again, back to my second question, can someone provide me with information on filing a complaint or grievance against a Court-appointed Child Representative?  If the DVD isn’t turned over in the next two weeks, I will be filing a Motion for Rule against the Child Representative and seeking her dismissal from the case, which I understand would be quite unusual if granted, for failing to perform her duties in accordance with 750 ILCS 5/506 (a) by not acting in our children’s best interests, failing to “encourage settlement and the use of alternative forms of dispute resolution”, and failing to “investigate the facts of the case”.   If the Child Representative then still refuses to provide the DVD to my attorney, I will go to a State Prosecutor at the conclusion of my case and have Obstruction of Justice charges brought against her.

The Child Representative has now filed for her fees to be approved by the Court, totaling $20,000.  This was the first bill she provided in my case, and was provided after 16 months only after my attorney requested a bill.  This also violates Illinois law pursuant to 750 ILCS 5/506 (b) for failing to provide quarterly billings.  I am quite concerned the Judge will just “rubber stamp” her fees despite the Child Representative’s failure to perform her duties in accordance with applicable Illinois statutes.

Also, when I received the Child Representative’s billing, I saw that she had spent nearly twice as long speaking to my ex, her family, and friends than me and my witnesses, and saw she had contacted people on a “witness list” provided by my ex, though she never asked for a list of witnesses from me.  When I discovered this, I sent the Child Representative a list of people, both relatives and non-relatives, who have witnessed me with my children.  The Child Representative told me she would be happy to contact those people, yet has failed to do so.

If anyone can provide information on how I can file a complaint or grievance against a Court-appointed Child Representative, please let me know.  It seems that everyone involved is on board with me having some form of custody, the Judge, my ex’s attorney, and the 604(b), except the Child Representative.  It is unclear to me where her apparent bias is coming from.

Do I Petition the Court, write to my State Representative, or is there some other formal procedure in place for filing a complaint or grievance?

Fifth question:  Can the Court take the Child Representative’s opinion over the recommendation of the 604(b)?  From the Illinois statute I know the 604(b) evaluation is considered evidence while the Child Representative’s opinion cannot be considered evidence, but may be used for purposes of settlement.

Sixth question:  Can the Court change our temporary joint custody on the Child Representative’s opinion without hearing testimony from the 604(b) evaluator, even though the Child Representative was aware of the DVD at the last court hearing, yet still agreed to temporary joint custody?

Final question:  What should I do?  There’s probably not much I can do other than be patient, but the thought of losing custody of my children is very troubling since I am an active, involved, loving father, and know my ex will do everything in her power to cut me out of their lives if given the chance.  I would find it hard to believe the Court would change temporary joint custody with hearing testimony from the 604(b), and if the evaluator testifies, I’m sure it will be very damaging to my ex’s case.  I really believe my case is rock solid other than the uncertainty of this Child Representative who, in my opinion, does not have my children’s best interests in mind.  Should I just be patient and let the trial play out?  I’m confident when all the evidence I have accumulated is presented and the 604(b) testifies that I will be granted some form of custody of my children.

I’m bothered somewhat by prior posts on the cost of these cases.  To the amounts being mentioned earlier, I say “BIG DEAL!”  My attorney has cost $40K (and counting), the Child Rep $20K (and counting), my portion of the $23K 604(b) cost $16K, direct support of $8K (which I began paying voluntarily after my ex would not respond to my formal, written offer of statutory child support), expenses for my children of $4K, and all marital debts and insurance for my ex and our children since separation for a grand total of $135K so far, which is going to increase significantly with our trial, which I anticipate lasting at least a week.  If you’re wondering, no, I’m not independently wealthy.  I work in the finance industry and make under $60K a year.

I think if I ever run into someone whose ex is as determined as mine to keep them from seeing their children (for no reason other than to use the children to hurt them), I will tell them they need to be prepared to spend $100K or just give in up front.  Really in all of this, from my perspective, that is the real shame in child custody cases.  If a woman wants to hurt the father by taking his children away from him without any grounds, she will be successful unless the father is prepared to throw six figures+ at it to protect his rights.  I am prepared to do this and am willing to lose everything so long as my right to have a relationship with my children is protected by the Court.

My saving grace is that I should be able to easily prove my ex has failed to comply with at least four court orders and have the appropriate Motions for Rule in place, and I should be granted attorney fees at the end of the case if I can hold out that long.  According to 750 ILCS 5/508(b) ,if the trial court finds that the party's failure to comply with an order was without compelling cause or justification, it must award attorney fees to the other party.  The law states “must award”, not “should” or “shall”, and there are many appellate court rulings supporting this statute.

Hopefully my case will be over at some point in 2009 and I will begin working on my book about my case.  I’m praying for a positive outcome for our children, and am thinking of titling the book “Defeating the Alienator.”

Thanks for reading my post and allowing me to vent.  This is so frustrating.  I just want it to be over but my ex won't allow it to be over. 

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Posted By: Jake
Date: 2008-10-07 09:23:35

Yes goodman you are right and that is exactly what is wrong with the system.  Women can throw out ANY accusations they want and fathers have to prove the allegations are false.

I realize if I hadn't been financially able to get the 604(b) identifying my ex's alienating behavior she would have been successful in her attempt to take my children away from me.  And all for no reason other than to hurt me with no regard for our children's best interests.

I am finishing the CPA exam this month and am seriously considering then turning my attention to law school to try and make a difference for fathers out there who lack the financial means to fight back against these evil, wicked mothers.  As a person of faith, I hold on to the belief that these women are not the majority of mothers out there, but they do exist.

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Posted By: Alfred
Date: 2008-10-08 13:46:52

Hello Jake,

Is there "Lesson 1" on False Child Physical Abuse Allegations?

A NOTICE OF REPORT TO THE CHILD ABUSE CENTRAL INDEX was made by Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services, eventhough the D.A. dropped all charges, can they still do that? Anyone with an answer or insight feel free to reply.

Thank you,

Alfred

 

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-13 14:35:51

We must remember the reason we have the judicial system for these cases and the reason is because there truly are some abusive fathers out there. 

We still have not come up with a better solution to protect our nation's children and it's sad to see that some innocent fathers are suffering the consequences by not seeing and raising their children, but think about the children who are terrified and suffering every day at the hands of abusive parents. 

This is the reason guys!  And until someone has a better solution, things are not going to change.   Sorry, I do feel for you dads but even more for the poor innocent children. Let's keep it in perspective... they are the ones suffering the most and they cannot standup for themselves.

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Posted By: Jake Morphonios
Date: 2008-10-13 15:11:26

************** DISCLAIMER ******************

Please be aware that the author of this article, Jake Morphonios, is not the same individual as the person going by the name "Jake" in the comment section. 

It appears that some readers are under the impression that they are speaking with the author.  I neither give legal advice to readers nor post any details or information of personal cases with which I have been involved.

Thank-you,

Jake Morphonios

 *************************************

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-16 11:40:11

???  Goodman, I'm confused.  I think you must be replying to someone else. ??  I re-read my post and am not seeing what you're getting at.  I guess I could have said "there are some abusive 'parents' out there."  But since this is an article about fathers, I was directing my comments to fathers.

You say there are abusive pervert "mothers" out there.  So yes, fathers and mothers both...  Do you at least agree that we need some protection for the children??  And that the court system that we have, flawed as it is, is our best option at this juncture to protect the innocent, abused children?  Do you suggest just letting children suffer under the abusive father OR mother's hands??? 

That's all I was trying to get at with my comment.  I don't understand the MAK reference either... but I guess I must have missed something.

Anyway, my best to all the innocents! (Fathers,mothers and especially the children!)

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-17 17:06:58

But I do agree!  It's wrong to falsely accuse someone, no doubt.!!  Innocent men should NOT have to suffer the loss of their children.  But... until there is a better way to protect the abused children, we are stuck with this system.  I'm not saying the system is right... just that there is not another way to protect the children and they are the most innocent of all. 

Do you disagree that our children should have some measure of protection from abusive "parents" ?

I would rather see innocent fathers and mothers going through this ... than to just allow all children to have to suffer without any protection. 

I am NOT saying that I agree that fathers should be falsely accused.  Just that it's really sad that this is the best way we have to protect our nation's kids!

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-18 10:13:10

Goodman - Read my post.... I said "It's wrong to falsely accuse someone, no doubt.!!  Innocent men should NOT have to suffer the loss of their children."

Goodman - how can we protect the children?  That is my question. 

What would you do if you thought your ex-wife was abusing your child?  Would you not go to the police and report it?  Would you not hope that the court system would at least look into your claim? 

Get real, Goodman! 

 

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-18 10:26:25

By the way "good"man.... it sounds like it's YOU who does not give a crap about children, not the judges.  I haven't heard one concern on your part for the children. 

Do you even really have children?  Because if you really were a parent I would expect to hear at least some measure of concern for kids.  But no!  All I am hearing from you, is about you. 

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Posted By: Jake Morphonios
Date: 2008-10-18 10:51:57

Folks, you might be using different names to post your comments, but your bickering reveals you to be the same couple that I've spoken to in this comment section before.  You are both doing a disservice to everyone here by using this forum as a public venue to excoriate one another.  Given the tone of your post-separation relationship, I'd like to recommend that you read my article:

Post-Divorce Parenting for Men

[link edited for length]

While I addressed the article to men, the principles contained therein apply equally to women.  Please take a moment to read and consider the merits of these principles, especially the one about striving to forgive one another.

As a reminder, if you begin again to use this forum for cruel, personal attacks against each other I will have you banned and will report your IP addresses to your internet service providers for abuse.  If you wish to engage in ad hominem attacks, there are other places to do it.

If you wish to debate the subject of false abuse allegations here, you may do so - but do not get personal.  It is not appropriate to allege that one or the other party does not care about children or criticize each other as parents.  You will find more peace within yourselves if you will focus on moving beyond the pain of the dissolution of your relationship.  Your children love both of you.

Jake

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-18 17:35:42

Jake and Goodman, I apologize for getting carried away.  I agree with your article Jake and was just commenting that unfortunately, at this point, our system is all we have to protect the children who are  being harmed. 

I understand that a lot of innocent parents are suffering because of false abuse allegations.  My only point was that the court system is not at fault... it is faulty and needs improvement, yes.  But, the only one at fault would be the parent who is knowingly lying and falsely accusing the other parent.

I am not Goodman's ex-wife or anyone's ex, but have been married for 26 years to the father of my children.  I just wanted to comment on your article... I feel for the innocent fathers, mothers and children.  That was my original point. 

I have to say that I don't agree with Goodman's comment that the judges don't care about our children... 

 

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-18 17:39:26

P.S.  Jake, I agree with your article on post-divorce parenting 100% and have counseled many of my divorcing friends to do just as you pointed out.  Clearly, if this world were more forgiving we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.  Great advice and thank you.

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Posted By: A.J.
Date: 2008-10-19 09:54:22

No harm, no foul Goodman.  I had no right to insult you without even knowing you.  My sister in law is going through the court system at this time, with her daughter being a true victim of sexual abuse, by her father.  He is claiming that my sister in law is lying... it's just very upsetting for the whole family, especially my niece. 

Best of luck to all the innocents and let's hope somehow we can help improve the only court system that we have to date.

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Posted By: PBF
Date: 2009-01-27 21:03:48

Is this blog still active? I have a situation, and I don't see any posts since October last year. Hello hello?

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Posted By: CrossFire
Date: 2009-02-15 15:16:18

My soon to be ex made false allegations of sexual child abuse against me.  A detective and psycologist interviewed the child and found these allegations false and confronted the mother.  The mother admitted to coaching the child.  Now, was are my restitution against these false allegations.  The mother signed a confession admitting the false allegations and blamed her lawyer.

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Posted By: denise becker
Date: 2009-09-18 08:45:28

i think governor m at the time had a different motive for coming up with the mesure 11. He had to stand behind his old friend  D when he beat up his wife he was lucky that  the law had not come into effect yet. if every one out there did some checking they would find out the law was not meant for inocent. that our justic system used and abused it. why do you think our state is in such a finacial state. have to build all those big prison to house a lot of inocent people young and old on false allegation, i am not saying all are not guilty because there are plenty out that are. our justic system needs to change put the law back into the hands of our judges and not the DA. that are only trying to make a name for them selfes. yours truley washington state.

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Posted By: David
Date: 2009-10-19 16:47:23

My father has just been found guilty on a false abuse charge. He done a lie detector test 3 times and passed it 3 times, and the court said it was useless. He was arrested on 2 statements that totally contradicted eachother and a witness in court even had to admit on the stand in court that she was lieing. Half the jury were asleep while my dad gave his evidence, and one was actually laughing at him when he broke down on the stand. I thought it was innoccent till proven guilty...He is now facing 8 years in jail and the so called victim and her mother are trying to move back into his house (where this was all meant to have happened) not to sell it, but to live there. I\'m lost now and don\'t know what to do

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