©2008 Larry Ward, all rights reserved. You must have written permission from the author in order to republish this work.
Published: Monday, January 28, 2008
Last modified: Monday, January 28, 2008
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Reader Comments:
Posted By: Eric
Date: 2008-01-28 00:29:52
Really great words here about Jefferson and whats going on in politics. Thanks you.
Posted By: Web Smith
Date: 2008-01-28 01:13:13
Congress has, more than adequately, demonstrated the inability to resist the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived. The founding fathers knew this would happen and that is why they specifically excluded personal income tax. Unless you want your great great grandkids to have to go through this again, the 16th Amendment must be repealed.
Posted By: Peter
Date: 2008-01-28 01:34:57
Dear Larry,
Super analysis! See there is no reason to fear us Paulites.
In a "more perfect union" your tax plan would be ideal, but as it stands RP's is the best first step. It appeals to targeted groups of people, and is easy to understand; I mean, it is easy to understands that one's tips won't be taxed, but not easy to understand the nuances of the tax code. It is in line with RP's style as well. He has always aimed to start by removing specific taxes. This sets the mood for future, more severe, measures. Lets get him elected and stop the War and dismantle our empire. Then, we can elect a bunch of congressmen under the RP banner two years later and get some major changes made. Step-by-Step has to be how it done for the time being, unless the dollar crashes tomorrow and we have a real full-blown revolution on our hands.
Peter
Posted By: Chad_Underdonk
Date: 2008-01-28 01:49:04
I think you are making the false assumption that Dr. Paul would stop at the points made in his proposal. The points made in his proposal are the starting point, they are the bare minimum working within the current framework to shore up our economic policies. And if enacted they would lend further credence to his ideas, hopefully clearing the way to complete the goals he has talked about in his Presidential plank. Dr. Paul knows that even if he was elected tomorrow it would take time to change our foreign policy, it would take time to cut the costs of intervention both overseas and at home. But the points listed in his 4 pronged attack would restore consumer confidence and be the fastest way to end the recession/depression that we are in the early stages of. ..................................................................................................................................................................... Point 1 is all about leaving more money in the market, which can then be reinvested, used to buy goods, or otherwise used by consumers and businesses to turn the economy around. This will on its own create an improvement in the market which will actually wind up helping to bring in more taxes. ..................................................................................................................................................................... Point 2 is about controlling government spending so that the debt doesn't skyrocket when we cut out the taxes in point 1 ..................................................................................................................................................................... Point 3 is about creating a situation where our money isn't being secretly manipulated by "the man behind the curtain" and is instead done openly where theoretically everyone can react to changes in the monetary market. ..................................................................................................................................................................... Point 4 is about freeing industry from regulatory reform which is crippling their productivity, wasting their capital on burdensome reporting schemes, and driving their investments overseas. ..................................................................................................................................................................... These are all methods that can be relatively quickly put into place, while we all want more, this is a good start for fixing our economy. Lastly, the idea that we should have a national sales tax has a big problem with it. Largely that no matter what government will not keep its hand out of the cookie jar, and will be monkeying with it. Even without that, a massive black market would develop to relieve us of a 30% tax. The goal should be the stated goals of the campaign the whole time, eliminate unneccessary spening, and eliminate the IRS, but intermediary steps have to be taken because that cannot occur overnight.
Posted By: JimS
Date: 2008-01-28 02:00:43
Snooze fest - I got knocked over by a big wall of text and couldn’t bring myself to finish - I'm sure you made good points all I got to say is...Ron Paul 2008!
Posted By: John Call
Date: 2008-01-28 04:10:38
For those of us who think the I.R.S. actually collects money for anything OTHER than to fund itself and pay back the federal reserve the interest we owe it for purchasing all those US treasury bonds so that it can "inflate" our economy with all those worthless greenbacks it prints, I have 3 words: GRACE COMMISSION REPORT
Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2008-01-28 07:09:58
I don't think there's any need to think up reasons why opponents might oppose the proposals. They're more than capable of doing that themselves without the help of Paul supporters, and they can be countered as necessary when the time comes.
What's far more important is to discuss reasons why the proposals are so good for America. That's the kind of thing that Americans can latch onto.
Posted By: Laurie
Date: 2008-01-28 10:38:11
I don't think you get it. The idea is to eliminate the income tax and replace it with NOTHING. Dr. Paul explains that it is necessary to shrink the government in order to do this and, for most of his supporters, this is an added bonus. Your idea is basically to give them a different revenue stream and allow Congress to continue stealing our wealth and liberty by different means. I think your idea is actually being promoted by Huckabee.
Posted By: WizarDave
Date: 2008-01-28 10:41:29
Your best argument is that these things should be debated.
There are several ideas which might work.
How about repealing the 17th amendment so individual states actually have power in the federal government again. Then, apportion needed federal taxes among the many states. Let each state decide the best way to tax their citizens. That way when congress starts exceeding it's bounds, the Senate would reign in the excess because it is not in their state's best interest.
But for now, I like Ron Paul's plan. It is the only viable plan on the table.
Posted By: kimble
Date: 2008-01-28 13:27:39
Congress has shown that, regardless of the party in power, it will spend every dime it can tax, borrow, or steal. If nothing else, if you just cannot stand the idea of living without the IRS, then at least CAP (via amendment) the maximum tax rate (for ANY and EVERY type of federal tax) at 7%, CAP the debt to revenue ratio, CAP growth in M3, eliminate double taxation, and require a supermajority to tinker with any tax code thereafter.Seven percent is lower than any other OECD country, or India, or China or Russia, and, incidentally, it is the *maximum rate* under the original 1913 income tax act. Back then, it only applied to people earning $500,000 or more, an amount roughly equivalent to $20 million/yr today. I think we can all live with the old sock-it-to-the-millionaires' rate.
A flat tax isn't as progressive as our current system, and it's not nearly as regressive or bureaucratic as the "Fair Tax" being pushed so hard by Chucklebee. Most importantly, it would be stable, induce the return of capital to the territories, and keep a class of people (let's call them entrepreneurs) from emigrating en masse after this sorry election cycle.
I can't think of any better inducement to becoming a smuggler than passage of the Fair Tax. Thirty friggin' percent of *revenue* and a welfare check for all-- and they call Paul supporters crazy!? Look up "VAT carousel fraud" on your favorite government-monitored search engine, or, for a more local flavor "Medicare fraud", "Social Security fraud" and or "Tax Refund Fraud".
Posted By: Robert J. Ransom, Jr. - ChFC
Date: 2008-01-28 15:27:11
Repeal the 16th Amendment! The U.S. Tax Code must be replaced, not just reformed! Go FairTax! The American economy would flourish!
Posted By: Robert J. Ransom, Jr. - ChFC
Date: 2008-01-28 15:31:13
Repeal the 16th Amendment! The U.S. Tax Code must be replaced, not just reformed! Go FairTax! The American economy would flourish!
Posted By: GatorVol
Date: 2008-01-28 20:30:33
Very thoughtful article, Larry. There's a lot of tax relief that Ron Paul can accomplish simply in the role of Commander in Chief, like pulling our troups out of places we don't belong.
He has some very convincing points in his economic policies, and I believe Congress will incorporate some of his suggestions once Ron gets in there and cleans house. (pun intended) He will veto anything he feels is unconstitional, a Federal abuse of power or unfair to the American people, so Congress will have to be pretty convinced to over-ride his veto by a 2/3 majority.
I am an American presently in Europe and have seen the tax model that you described, which is similar to the the European VAT. The VAT can become very complicated especially when there are several steps in the manufacturing process. What about a retail or "end consumer" tax? I haven't really thought it out, but it seems that might be a little less complicated as we already pay sales taxes. Imports could pay the same sales tax, which would level the playing field for "Made in the USA" products and services.
Posted By: Treg
Date: 2008-01-29 11:18:56
The "wholesale" vs "retail" catagories are simply fiction. What is "wholesale"? To the wholesaler, its a retail sale. Indeed, if we place the burdon of taxes upon the "wholesaler", the definition of what it is to be a wholesaler will be looked at in detail, and adjustments will be made quickly to NOT "be" a wholesaler.
A better way would be to identify the Federal Service we all get. Then charge citizens at the point of "sale" or "Service". If we agree on what the Service is that we get from the Federal Government, then we can get into how it should be paid for. Ayn Rand suggested the proper role of government is Police, Courts, and Military--- at each level. That was a step in the right direction and the idea needs to be fully vetted. If the consensus locally is the people want more than these three functions, then so be it. Say they want Police, Courts, Military, Prisons, Rehab Centers, Half-way drug clinics, Hospitals for the poor, and public food & housing for the poor. The citizens of that city will be the ones paying for these "services", so be it.
Lets just say they want 3 services to keep it simple. Now lets start at the top. Federal Courts, Federal Police, Federal Military should all be paid for at the point of service rendered. But who recieves the Federal service? The States. So then the States have a State Courts, State Police, and State Military (National Guard). But who recieves that service? The Counties and the cities... thus the bottom of this chain is the incorporated city, incorporated to perform services. Thus payment, all payments, should be made at this level, at this point. Cities have court cases that need to go to the County level, county thus charges the City, that is how the City knows how much to charge you and me for Courts. The City has police cases that go out of the city and goes County wide, thus the County charges the cities within, thus the City knows how much to charge for Police Service. Sometimes the Police goes beyond city boundries, to county boundries, to State Boundries, to National Boundries....thus each level can be seen as charging down to the other, down to the "point of Sale". Osama Bin Laden and Transnational Criminals... National Police do have and international Police organization, this organization works this way. A criminal, say an arsonist, burns city blocks in Brazil and travels to Berlin Germany and does the same thing there. Both Brazil and Germany send their police working on the case to Interpol, international Police, where upon these police work with those in the USA and Canada (if they think the arsonist may be there). Those National Police in USA and Canada follow the leads and info from the Brazilian and German police working on the case at Interpol, and track down the criminal inside their country, even though the Brazilian arsonist has done nothing inside the USA or Canada. That is indeed how Interpol works. That is indeed how we must catch international criminals, even arrest them for intention to commit a crime. Back to my point, Interpol charges back to the countries that use them. In this case, US and Canadian national police would charge interpol who charge both Germany and Brazil who where after this arsonist. That is by the way, how it does work. In the case of Bin Laden, the USA has made it a military matter, and has not funded Interpol or empowered them to do the investigative police work internationally to track down these criminals. Yet it has been and remains esentially police investigative work, something Interpol is much better at than the Pentagon.
So, as a citizen getting taxed on the RETAIL end, the tax rate in my city will be different than that in yours because locally we may have more court cases, want more judges, more police, etc. We also may have more court cases go to the County and the State, so get charged from these two more money.
By tying together the SERVICE of Government locally, we can link the COSTS and the payment METHOD.
Treg / Tempe, AZ
Posted By: bryan
Date: 2008-02-02 08:05:26
Fed + IRS = Crippled Economy.
Sorry if my post is too verbose and/or tangental.
Posted By: mike montagne
Date: 2008-02-05 14:46:26
Dear Larry,
Congratulations on a generally fine article. While I would like to debate you on a few of its points, even in disagreement I commend your thoughts as excellent starting points.
One of our supporters sent me to your page in response to my own criticism of Ron Paul's "Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan."
I hope it's OK if I post the URL for reference, particularly if we are to have a constructive debate. You are certainly welcome to comment on my critique and post a URL back to these pages. (In fact, I suppose I will blog this response in our pages, linking back to your article from moment one.)
http://perfecteconomy.com/wp/2008/02/05/my-critique-of-ron-pauls-comprehensive-revitalization-plan/
As a student of Jefferson, and even much moreso as a student of mathematics, I would first like to challenge your re-assertion that, "because, as Ron Paul reminds us often, our knowledge is imperfect, even, for example, if we are that giant of the Revolution, Mr. Jefferson. We are not infallible pontiffs or divine right kings. We are just honest and diligent men."
Yes, we are fallible; but this does not mean that "economics" cannot be resolved into a true, infallible science, quite unlike what we are confronted with today. Jefferson himself postulated about the perfection of economics. There are cases where he all but arrives upon the true form of theorem which present "economics" is wholly bereft of.
In any discipline subject to finite elements and operations, not only can we know all outcome, we can even readily determine (therefore) the scope of possible outcome. The Austrian School however, which Dr. Paul is so fond of, is disposed against all such thinking, because it wholeheartedly rejects the application of mathematics. It assumes wrongly that mathematics must only or can only be applied to *human behavior*. And in many cases where mathematics cannot rightly claim to account for human behavior, indeed Austrian School thinking may be correct in their assumption.
But in alternate cases, where human behavior is not estimated at all, Austrian School zealots still coldly reject math, as if they are adhering to a sacred principle of Mises or Bohm-Bawerk.
A vital example of the latter, and an issue I believe Jefferson was working on, was a fitting analysis not of human behavior, but of the *environment* which a monetary system comprises, to which all human behavior is subject. If a person or persons were to engineer a perfect economic system, this of course is the first issue we must tackle, for what is money to represent to us; and how is it to represent whatever we intend of it?
Most people, and certainly the supporters to now of the Ron Paul Revolution, would desire that money represent a handful of just properties; and certainly Dr. Paul's initiative seems to pursue these objectives, but on certain other planes it obstructs us from achieving them. Most of us desire for money to retain its value, or vital saving is defeated. Most of us desire that our money not be subject to involuntary servitude, or our commerce will cost more to us: Money therefore must be *only* a medium of exchange; it cannot involve unassented processes; and particularly it cannot involve unassented, unearned profit taking from us.
Here too, Austrian School economics thus swerves from solution, because it embraces interest and purported "markets" which are means of taking from, and thus impeding, real industry. We can only begin to appreciate these detrimental effects therefore when we evaluate the ramifications of privatizing the currency for the sake of unearned profit, for it is the nature of the currency which predicates the environment which is produced by any currency involving the inherent processes of interest.
Thomas Jefferson said, that "If the American people ever allow banks to issue their currency, first by inflation, and then by deflation, the banks and [bank owned] corporations which will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." It is my presumption that he was thinking what I am about to present regarding the environment a privatized currency comprises. Certainly his observations can only concur with true observations of the present, for his prophetic projection is on the verge of completion.
In any purported economy where the currency is subject to "interest," it is mathematically impossible/impractical to maintain a circulation without suffering inherent, irreversible multiplication of debt in proportion to the original circulation. This is the most critical issue Dr. Paul fails to address, because it is the issue which ultimately terminates the purported economy. Ultimately the process engenders a sum of debt so great that we can no longer afford to service debt and sustain commerce.
The process is simple. To maintain a circulation, we must perpetually re-borrow whatever we pay against principal and interest obligations. Subsequent sums of debt therefore equal the previous sum of debt plus so much as periodic interest. It is impossible to pay down the sum of debt, because, to maintain the vital circulation, we must re-borrow principal payments as subsequent debts equal to the former. Because we must likewise re-borrow what we pay against interest obligations, thus as we maintain a vital circulation, what we borrow back in the way of servicing interest comprises the increment by which debt increases.
Thus, the sum of debt increases by ever greater increments of greater sums of periodic interest on an ever greater sum of debt. The sum of debt increases by ever escalating increments then, until an eventual sum of debt is so great that we collapse under the weight of it.
In the early 1980s I provided the Reagan Administration with mathematic proofs that his proposed 10% per year, 3-year tax cuts would even offset double-digit inflation, much less solve it; and that he would impose the greatest multiplication of debt so far seen in the history of our country (after denouncing Carter's $150 B accumulation of federal debt as "unforgivable"). I also provided the Reagan Administration computer models which calculated the future accumulation of debt by said process, and which therefore forecast the maximum possible lifespan of any purported economy involving a currency subject to interest.
The collapse projected from the first years of the Reagan Administration is now upon us.
So this brings me full circle to what is *definitely* wrong with the Paul plan. It shows no engineering at all; and it is a huge mistake for Paul supporters (of whom I am one) to presume it is "good" because of the modest steps in a direction it may purport to take. By the time it gets there (if it ever gets there), further multiplication of debt may already have consumed the "potential" benefits.
I formally proposed solution to these issues in 1979 (morphallaxis) in what we now call mathematically perfected economy™. Mathematically perfected economy™ is the singular integral solution to inflation and deflation, intrinsic (systemic) manipulation of the cost of value of money or property, and inherent, irreversible multiplication of debt by interest.
We have a shot (possibly) of getting the Paul Camp to pursue mathematically perfected economy™. It is a shame we haven't succeeded in doing so already. But if you want our candidate to succeed, he can only do so with a real solution. As you will see if you visit the furnished URL, we can shoot holes in his plan. If you would like to try to shoot holes in ours, you are welcome to visit our forum and blast away.
http://perfecteconomy.com/f/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=37&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
But, like you Larry, I present these issues with a positive attitude, hoping that in the very nearest future Ron Paul's supporters can and will influence him to adopt a truly comprehensive plan.
Great presidents, like a great republic, must recognize sound principles. I'm just trying to save my country.
Regards,
mike montagne — PEOPLE For Mathematically Perfected Economy