I wrote a simple article asking a question about Dr. Paul's Republican canidacy. I did not think the question was in any way insulting --- rather, it was supposed to be thought provoking.
Out of sixteen responses,about five actually bothered to read what I was saying. At least two people posted something that had nothing at ALL to do with the article, one I should probably report to the site author, and several people either chose not to try to understand what was written or were too busy trying to make their own points to respond to what I wrote.
I think , really, that is why Libertarians are going to lose. You think you have a lot of momentum because the only people you want to listen to is yourselves. Some of you never heard about Libertarianism before and now since you believe in it you don't believe anything else matters,some of you have been this way for years.
It hardly matters.
What matters is that he will NOT win if the reception I got to a short column with a simple question that certainly wasn't attacking Dr. Paul was mostly hostile. Before tonight, I might have been receptive to his message. I bothered to peruse his site despite my own leanings away from that sort of thing and might have listened to him in debate. AFTER reading these comments, I couldn't care less about him, or his campaign. If this is how I am treated,I can safely assume other potential voters are being soured on him like this -- and by Ron Paul supporters to boot.
And this isn't confined to this site. A discussion a few days ago with a friend of mine basically ran along the lines of this:
me: Well, what do you think about the election so far?
friend: Well, obviously Ron Paul will win.
me: ..okay. Anything else?
friend: no, there isn't. Let me tell you about Ron Paul, see, Ron Paul is something this country hasn't experienced before, and it's going to alter everything.
me: That's great, really. I was watching the Democratic debates...
friend: Waste of time. You should be donating to Dr. Paul's campaign!
me: ...and why would I do that when I don't agree with most of what he says?
friend: If you don't agree with what he says, how can you call yourself an American?
I will wager that a large chunk of Libertarians who responded rather rudely to my postings -- and to those Libertarians who made crank calls to people, or who get into shouting matches, or act like my friend, see nothing at all wrong with their behavior.
So be it. But you are not convincing anyone of anything except that
a) you're more concerned with being heard than convincing someone
b) you're so assured of your rightness that no one else is allowed to have a different opinion.
If this is the free-market, invidivualistic society espoused by Dr. Paul, I'll pass. I don't have time for histronics, copy-paste speeches, and boiler plate repeatitive sound bytes that don't really offer answers to some of my questions.
©2008 Logical Premise, all rights reserved. You must have written permission from the author in order to republish this work.
Published: Friday, January 25, 2008
Last modified: Friday, January 25, 2008
The views expressed in this article are those of Logical Premise only and do not represent the views of Nolan Chart, LLC or its affiliates. Logical Premise is solely responsible for the contents of this article and is not an employee or otherwise affiliated with Nolan Chart, LLC in his/her role as a columnist.
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Reader Comments:
Posted By: Michael Cathcart
Date: 2008-01-25 03:36:09
Here's an idea, stop talking to your obviously ignorant friend. Stop blaming Paul, for one or even a dozen ignorant people who are so excited by his candidacy that they cant contain themselves. These people are nice, but assuradely ignorant, why not reach out to folks who can give you some answers. Ronpaul2008.com, ronpaullibrary.org, ronpaulaudio.com, contact anyone of a bazillion meetup coordinators. Contact the campaign directly, contact the state coordinator for your state.
Stop thinking that your friend is the be all end all of Ron Paul information, there are plenty more sources.
Posted By: Ian
Date: 2008-01-25 03:40:21
Well, I don't know what article you're talking about, perhaps a link would help.
However, don't you find it sad that you confuse the supporter's pestering with the candidate's positions?
If you believe an all powerful and benevolent government empowers citizens rather than rapes them, I don't think you're going to come around to Ron Paul's way of thinking, annoying supporters or not.
Individual freedom and individual responsibility build strong individuals. A tight knit group of strong individuals make a strong family, and strong families make string communities and they make strong states.
Liberty comes from bottom up, not from the state down. I still hope you'll come around though.
Posted By: Neo
Date: 2008-01-25 03:52:24
Logical Premise,
i was reading until i saw "AFTER reading these comments, I couldn't care less about him, or his campaign.".
my dear friend, i support Ron Paul, not because his personality or character or whatever charisma, i do so because his message,so powerful that i fall in love with American Culture, so do other Paulites i guess.
i don't respect him more because 3 money bombs, neither do i diss him because of MSM bias.
you may call it blind love.
but you made me scared when you being "AFTER reading these comments, I couldn't care less about him, or his campaign."
n i call it crush.
think about it
neo from china
Posted By: Scooter
Date: 2008-01-25 04:17:56
to: Logical Premise a (Statist)I can fully understand with your feelings, Years ago I was a democrat, then a republican, only to finally conclude those parties are truly the same animal. I agree with 85% of Ron Paul’s message. There never will be a perfect candidate.
For candidates in general, and who gives a crap about their party affiliation.. (Ron Paul is in fact a fake republican, that is his saving grace) look at their positions, their words, and their history of deeds.
In the entire flock, I'll vote for imperfect Ron Paul. are some of his positions sort of lame.. yes, here is one... and I'll explain it.
The Federal Reserve : Ron Paul says ban it. Fully understandable, it is a privately owned consortium. President Andrew Jackson did the just that 130 years ago to a predecessor of the Fed Res. Paul’s says back the currency with gold. Now there is a fancily.. So much paper money has been circulated. that is a physical impossibility. But like China, like Russia, like France, Like Germany. US citizens should OWN our national bank. Calculate the fed's "discount rate". On funds they loaned out in 1919 they still collect interest.. indefinitely.. it never ends. Mathematically.. they collect the one tax that is never allowed to be spoken in America (whisper….)"a wealth tax". It is about an average of 4 % of all treasure in private hands, and all that barrowed by government. That is quite a profit. If that became owned by the people again, you could just cut all Federal Taxes to zero.
So.. just banning fed.. or converting to gold is a child like knee jerk answer.. like Hilary Clinton's Stalinist craving for power.. that is her knee jerk reaction.
lets look over the candidates..
Mitt Romney: he will stuff the goverment with Mormons.. visit parts of the US Army civilian branch at Ft Bragg.. or Microsoft's Hardware division. stuffed with Mormons. But.. they are sweet harts compared to Geroge Bush selections of Cheny.. and that clan.. or Hilary and say.. Mad Albright.. Janet Reno (never met a kid she did not have the guts to kill).. Sandy Burgler.. need I go on.. .Guess who runs her campaign now.. Al C. Hastings .. impeached judge.. google him.. whew. She really scrapes he bottom of the barrel. But Romney's real problem.. he owes his life to wall street. Wall street is a gambling organization.. and the Fed prints the money.. and you the people pay the bill. (you wnat that for a president?)
Guliani: Cross Dressing NY lawyer.. his claim to fame... locking up a few mobsters.. (Ronald Regan accomplished that, Guliani just rode the wave) Guilian's best friends he helped get into government.. are on the way to jail.. for serious crimes. 3 wifes.. his kids hate him... does that matter? yes it does. Just becasue you and I are imperfect.. does not mean you have to vote for scum like that. He does have a good medical plan of government using Keynesian economics to get everyone into health insurance.. its a solid plan. His down side.. More bush war.. more... more...more.. and more wall street..more..more.. (you wnat that for a president?)
McCain: More bush war.. more... more...more.. and more wall street..more..more.., Illegal aliens.. more , more more more. This was Regan's #1 mistake. Amnesty of the mid 1980's is way they have poured across the board. That is the 95% reason. Why does McCain want it so bad.. Is he that stupid? No.. he is that paid for.. (you want that for a president?)
How about Hillary C: Mad Albright.. Janet Reno (never met a kid she did not have the guts to kill).. Sandy Burgler.. need I go on.. .Guess who runs her campaign now.. Al C. Hastings .. impeached judge.. google him.. whew..She really scrapes he bottom of the barrel The clincher.. the Clintons become America's new king and queen.. think of the pardons.. an orgasm of pardons. guess who they will pardon on her last day in office.. each other. (you want that for a president?)
Barack: No experience.. he would quickly become the pawn of powerful evil men of WA DC. Is he a moslem.. a christian.. and agnostic? he does not know himself. (you want that for a president?) (Hilary knows what she is… (no.. not satan) Just one of his servants
Edwards: ambulance chaser.. nothing more. probably the least scary of the dems "big 3".. As for mind or soul . there is nothing there. hey put the 3 dems on the cover of a book.. "3 who made a revolution" hehehehe. (those of you who are well read will get the joke).
Ron Paul:.. well as you dems and republicans have taught me.. I will no longer "waste my vote" I'm voting for Ron Paul. He will have to come to terms with the Fed Reserve.. yes.. only one method can work.. jail the owners.. seize all their wealth and the nationalize the bank.. if he does not jail even their family members.. they will kill him. John Kennedy signed executive order 11110 to go around the fed, and let congress print 4 B. dollars. He was dead 4 days later. get us out of the middle east.. who in his right mind can argue against that.. only an idiot or a profiteer..(wall street... their profit.. your idiot blood). We can go to the moon.. and now mars (its for big business.. you’ll see) But we can’t get off middle east oil? I call bullshit on that. 50% of US electricity s from fossil fuel. Let it be nuke power. Close the boarders.. the population stabilize.. so we can fix a some of America’s life threatening problems like energy. Turn the coal in to oil.. it was don in the 1940’s.. on an industrial scale.. it can be done now. A mix of regular cars.. lots of diesels, hybrids.. and light rail and you are there.. Then start exporting energy to save Japan from the middle east and china. Ohhh.. but that coal to oil pollutes.. go to China.. I have. The pollution there dwarfs any in this discussion of UAS energy policy. Keep sending all our wealth to the middle east until we have full nuke war with them.. count the pollution then.
Posted By: mike
Date: 2008-01-25 04:24:44
I agree with the statist. I will vote for the candidate I think will do the best job given the issues (in spite of any other supporters' views). There are zealots in every camp. An informed voter is a powerful voter in numbers. We can talk about the state of the union after the election. Peace.
Posted By: LibertyNH
Date: 2008-01-25 04:25:35
imho, one should judge a candidate by the candidates own words and actions, not the words and actions of a few supporters...
Posted By: tsoldrin
Date: 2008-01-25 04:27:07
Sorry, I didn't find your question all that thought provoking. In fact, it didn't seem like a question at all. It seemed to me to be more of a declaration. Here's what I got:
If Ron Paul loses by a small margin, there's obviously a conspiracy against him. If he loses by a landslide, then libertarian thinking must be wrong because Americans reject him.
I think many people simply reject these assumptions your 'question' was based on outright, so with nothing else to go on meandered a bit in their responses. Anyhow, perhaps a thicker skin might help.
The way I see it, everyone can be for Ron Paul and Ron Paul can be for everyone. Not because of his libtertarian philosophy, but because he is a strict constitutionalist. If you want to make changes, by all means, use the amendment process. That's the beauty of it. The problems start when illegal changes are made to the constitution via legislation or executive order. It sends cracks through the very foundation of our entire society and worst of all, opens the door for all sorts of unforseen problems in the future.
Posted By: ALicia McLaughlin
Date: 2008-01-25 04:55:35
This is Why I Am Voting for Dr.Paul
I was an American Zombie until I learned about a tenaciously man named Ron Paul. I am indebted to Dr. Paul; he guided me into using my OWN brain, to form my own opinions. Lucky for me I live in 2008, and we have access to the WWW. The Power of Paul and the power of the web, WHEEW that’s an intoxicating cocktail of truth. I am 32 years old, I have voted in the Presidential elections twice, both times for Bush (raised in republican household). The first time that I voted I did it because I wanted to be a good patriotic citizen and I wanted to be part of a caring conscious America. The second time I felt that I had no choice other than Bush.
All of my political information came from what I thought was conservative radio and TV. I fell into the same trap that most Americans have fallen into, allowing myself to be politically and socially victimized and manipulated by talk radio and main stream news. I have learned to rely on my self when in search of answers; my computer is my best friend. Anything that you want can come from this amazing piece of technology. No longer do I count on main stream media in for accurate information, now it is strict entertainment. The more that I learn about Ron Paul’s history, the more I come to realize that his views and Ideas are 100% attainable and 110% rational. After you look at his campaign site, Youtube Ron Paul and Bernake as a search, and then google books written by Paul (many to choose from). I am reading A Foreign Policy of Freedom, I highly recommend it . For all the pro war readers, do a search on recent threats from Putin of Russia, research where Iran is getting its nuclear (for utilities) assistance from and who they are buying weapons from. How valuable is Iran’s oil to China, valuable enough to go to war with the U.S? How does Russia view America, what about the rest of the world? When you find out how great Paul is be part of the Revolution with us!To the author, I wish that I or one of the hundreds of knowledgeable supporters that I have had the pleasure of campaigning with would have been in your interview. Sometimes you get what you ask for.
Alicia
Posted By: chad
Date: 2008-01-25 05:00:08
i can't help but continue to notice that Ron Paul writers and posters provide the most intelligence, depth, and wisdom in their writings; compared to the writings of those supporting other candidates. i can see many reasons why your friend might behave that way. some people see the basic working principles of certain issues/matters, similar to the way an engineer sees a solution to a real-world problem. those people would probably rather not call their solutions "opinions", because opinions are personal interpretations; 2 + 2 = 4 is not an opinion, 4 is the correct answer regardless of who you are. but some people may not know about numbers and addition, so they can only have various opinions as to what the answer might be, and such answers will be based upon their dreams, visions, feelings, or emotions, but not in ways with solid working foundations. or sometimes people don't understand things fully enough to articulate a good understanding of certain issues, or maybe they have been learning so much so fast that it is "overload" for them to try to explain it all. you use the word "convince", but i think it is more of a matter of personal development/knowledge which leads to certain understandings. i don't know if i can "convince" you that it is criminal to steal the property of others using violent levels of threats and force. it is something you see as a clear violation of natural law, or you don't. i don't know if i can "convince" you that the Constitution is the "law of the land" and probably the best Constitution of any country on earth, you either have studied these things and understand these things or you don't. maybe you think the Constitution is "living", so the law is whatever you want it to be so you can do whatever you want to do. i don't know if i can "convince" you that "nothing is free", and when you allow paper money to be printed on demand to satisfy the need/greed of others, it is at the expense of everyone else (through inflation). you either understand these things or you don't. the point is that it really isn't up to others to convince you, as much as it is for you to study, learn, and understand for yourself. if you have questions or challenges, i am sure anyone with an interest in Ron Paul will be able to give a pretty good response. -- We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Posted By: Theresa
Date: 2008-01-25 05:36:34
That's sad. Maybe you can find it in your heart to not bunch all of us together. I'm not a libertarian, I'm a moderate Republican. I found Ron Paul when I "woke up" on my own. Being forced to wake up is not what I consider free will. Do your own research, youtube Ron Paul and hear him speak for yourself. If you start to wake up, expect to spend about a week in a daze until you figure out what to do. The analogy is often equated with taking the red pill. :) cheers
Posted By: NH
Date: 2008-01-25 06:14:56
I find your articles to be something that look to be written by a 5th grader.
Posted By: MTGradwell
Date: 2008-01-25 06:26:15
The question you asked - "What does it mean if Dr. Paul loses this election?" might have been thought-provoking if it wasn't rhetorical. But you asked the question, not in order to elicit enlightening responses, but in order to lead in to your own answer ,
"I think that a lot of Dr. Paul's supporters will claim that they were cheated, or voter fraud, or that the MSM wrecked the campaign, or what have you. They will accept anything except the idea that most people find their ideas alien, frightening, naive, and almost idealistically childish."
Faced with this barrage of insults - "frightening, naive, childish" - the Paul supporters responded with a remarkable degree of tolerance. Despite your mischaracterisation of the response, *all* replies directly addressed what you had written, and most did so in a reasoned fashion, as anyone can see for themselves at
http://www.nolanchart.com/article1420.html
Only two were highly critical of what you had written. The one you thought you "should probably report to the site author" is presumably the one stating "your article sounds like facist propaganda"; but this is not actually accusing you of being fascist, merely making the reasonable point that "most people find (Dr. Paul's supporters') ideas alien, frightening, naive, and almost idealistically childish" is exactly the line taken by the fascist propagandists. And the other response which you took particular exception to, the "who cares what you think?" response, is entirely appropriate if all you can think of is insults and negativity.
Posted By: Jennifer
Date: 2008-01-25 07:04:16
Please don't link all the supporters together. Are you one of those people who think all Muslim's are terrorists too?
How could you let anything else influence your opinion but your own feelings about a candidate?
Posted By: David P
Date: 2008-01-25 07:45:06
I hear you. Alot of the younger Paul supporters know why they support him but have no comprehension of how to tell somebody why they should vote as well. I think genuine excitement gets in the way, although if there is no substance it comes across as just rude.
Posted By: badunit
Date: 2008-01-25 07:51:45
Hey some of us are just morons...sorry about that
Ron Paul has to win because if he doesn't we will all lose...
Ron Paul is going to alter everything cause fire and water don't mix
All those posers running for pres are just meat puppets, they just want to eat your brains.... you can't listen to zombies
The constipation of the US is what defines us now, push real hard and get the Patriot Act outta there...maybe you are a moron and our "movement" would be better with you on the other side...lord know's we don't need more morons on this side...get your face all up in there and push....
Besides the machines have taken over and will be voting for us...la la la la la la la la la la
Posted By: DX10
Date: 2008-01-25 08:04:01
Central banks are wrong no matter who owns them, as they provide a method for inflating the currency and financing government adventures without appeal to the people.
Posted By: Mike
Date: 2008-01-25 08:17:45
I find it sad that you let your choice for the President of the United States of America be so easily swayed. You would honestly not vote for a candidate because of how a small handful out of tens of thousands of supports for a candidate present themselves? You should vote for the candidate that you think is best for this country period. The social graces of a very small minority of supporters has no place in a decision of this magnitude.
Posted By: Josh
Date: 2008-01-25 08:35:54
While I generally disagree with what the statist write about Paul, sometimes he does bring up a few good points. Foremost among these is that all Paul supporters need to be able to take a little constructive criticism. I know it is hard to hear anyone criticize your hero, but please take the criticism as constructive, apply the lesson so you can help more people see that Paul is the answer to our problems. No one buys from an obnoxious pushy salesman, and that is all too often what we have become. Please just keep the enthusiasm dialed back and listen to the people you are talking to, if you disrespect them they will never give dr. paul a second thought. More Importantly, get off of your ass and go canvass your precinct.
Posted By: Jodi
Date: 2008-01-25 08:53:31
I am so sorry that you have been turned off to the platform of Ron Paul by a mere 16 responses. Most of us just read the information presented, but did not respond. Each of us is entitled to our opinions, but it disappoints me that you would base your decision on the opionions of others rather than the actuals words of the candidate himself.
As for your comments/questions, I thought they were thoughtfully raised. In the past Dr. Paul's campaign has responded to suggestions and actually made changes because of suggestions made in blogs.
Keep it up...........your column is always thought-provoking.
Posted By: Gene in Jersey
Date: 2008-01-25 08:58:29
Seems to me that you're a pretty shallow voter, pal. So you're telling us that you would vote for a candidate based upon the actions of his followers. Rather than evaluating the worth of a candidate based upon his platform and convictions and record, you do it by observing his followers.This is the kind of reasoning that has this country in the mess it's in. At least you're not alone, buddy. You've got a nation full of dull, insipid, shallow voters, just like yourself. And you get exactly the type of government you deserve. Good job!
Posted By: SupportTheTROOPS
Date: 2008-01-25 09:10:56
Why is Goldman Sachs buying our election??? Google Goldman Sachs.
Top supporters of Ron Paul
Google Inc
US Army
US Navy
Microsoft Corp
Huffines Communities
US Air Force
Top supporters of John McCain
Blank Rome LLP
Citigroup Inc
Greenberg Traurig LLP
Merrill Lynch
Goldman Sachs
Univision Communications
IDT Corp
Bank of New York Mellon
Top Supporters of Barak Obama
Goldman Sachs
Lehman Brothers
National Amusements Inc
JP Morgan Chase & Co
Sidley Austin LLP
Exelon Corp
Citigroup Inc
Citadel Investment Group
Top Supporters of Mitt Romney
Goldman Sachs
Merrill Lynch
Marriott International
Bain Capital
Morgan Stanley
Bain & Co
The Villages
Citigroup Inc
Top Supporters of Hillary Clinton
DLA Piper
Goldman Sachs
Morgan Stanley
Citigroup Inc
EMILY's List
National Amusements Inc
JP Morgan Chase & Co
Top Supporters of John Edwards
Act Blue
Fortress Investment Group
Stearns, Weaver et al
Lerach, Coughlin et al
Goldman Sachs
Whitten, Nelson et al
Do you see what I see???? More info on all the candidates and their finances at:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08
Posted By: JJ
Date: 2008-01-25 09:12:51
Your friend may have some rough edges but he is essentially correct. You're a dumbass. The Democrats DO hate America and DO collude on everything from entering us into wars to erasing our civil liberties. The Democrats are the party of Jim Crow and the party of Robert Byrd. The Democrats big favor to gays: "Don't ASK, Don't TELL" -- THAT'S THEIR GREAT RECORD ON GAY RIGHTS. Tell that to all Hillary's dyke supporters. They love her because they think she's one of them. They're probably right. But her party does them no political favors. And Ron Paul, well, he's probably the last, great, educated defender of our Republic still in politics in Washington D.C.. Which way Ron Paul's campaign goes seals or secures the fate of our Republic. Am I being ideological in saying that? No. I'm being realistic. But suit yourself, if you want to vote Dhimi, go do it. If you want Hillary (whose greatest contributors are the military-industrial contract firms) go for it! If you want peace, prosperity, liberty and justice for all, you'll go for Ron Paul. He has the most support from active duty enlisted and retired personnel. Who do you support? The fat cats or the people and the troops? America or our enemies? If you love America, you'll support Ron Paul.
Posted By: Tim Hoefer
Date: 2008-01-25 09:23:58
I understand that some supporters are like this, but not all of us are. I actually turn people away but use it to inform them about other facts about Dr. Paul they many not know of (and they might actually agree MORE with)
During a political discussion, one friend indicated she was Pro-Choice. I said, then you might not want to vote for Ron Paul -- he wants to take the federal government out of it and put that power in the states' hands. He also wants us out of Iraq and every other country, which will save us trillions....
Have also used a similar "inform-them tactic" when a friend stated, "I think we need to stay over there a little longer and finish the job".
I understand you being turned off by non-listening, non-sympathetic, bull-headed supporters. Unfortunately, passion can translate into this but there's no excuse.
Supporters need to remember that we're on a speeding train that has gradually gained momentum...if we try to grab someone who is standing still (or worse...walking the opposite direction)...there's a chance that someone's arm is going to get ripped off!
Posted By: Jason
Date: 2008-01-25 09:28:11
Win friends, win votes. Lose friends, lose votes.
Posted By: sheila
Date: 2008-01-25 09:38:47
Go to any news about Ron Paul and Statist is there, he's a troll.
Posted By: patrick henry
Date: 2008-01-25 10:03:51
This "article" really doesnt deserve my time, but I guess I am a sucker for it. First of all you quote your "friend". Sounds like a true friend to me. Anyone willing to slap you around and try and get you to wake up is a true friend indeed. Pull your head out of the FOX news sandbox. Once the rest of us did we felt LIBERATED. Our faith in govt and the constituion have been restored. If you havent the stomach to stand up and scream for LIBERTY then be gone from us. "If ye love wealth better than LIBERTY, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of FREEDOM, go from us now in PEACE. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon your amrs, and may prosperity forget that you were ever our countrymen"- Sam Adams Indeed, almost all of the other Paulites come across as far more learned, informed, intelligent and passionate demographic. They believe in an ideal that was based on enlightened principle and fought over. My relatives died to give us all LIBERTY. Cant anyone other than us get it? If you would not vote for Dr. Paul based on the fact that you are to ignorant to defend your arguement to your friend, then I guess you would vote DEMOCRAT. REPUBLIC not a Democracy "Democracy is 2 wolves and one sheep trying to decide whats for supper, LIBERTY is a well armed sheep"- Ben Franklin LIBERTY or DEATH
Posted By: The Statist
Date: 2008-01-25 10:42:01
You have to forgive these guys, they literally think that Ron Paul is running for king of America.
They don't want to be told that not all veterans support the good doctor. They don't want to be told that Dr. Paul's promises won't happen because not everyone of Bush's (good) ideas were passed. Most of these people, not all of them, are the equivalent of Ross Perot supporters. They are here to interupt, to disturb the status quo, and to shout over you and anyone who points out the obvious.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
You are doing the Flying Spaghetti Monster's work, even if you are a representation of the democratic party.
Posted By: Rocky Barnette
Date: 2008-01-25 10:42:12
I vote for the candidate who has as close to the same ideals, integrity, and belief about how our country should be governed as I do. If that candidate is Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian, does not matter to me. This election, my vote goes to Ron Paul for being that candidate. I'm the only supporter of his that concerns me. I don't choose to waste my time on the opinions of others who have the same right as I do of freedom of speech and to make their own choice for President of the United States of America. It is their right to do so....doesn't make it right or wrong, and neither does my opinion. It's just mine. Thank you for the chance to speak my mind as well.
Posted By: Pliny
Date: 2008-01-25 10:57:54
Who votes on the basis of what others do or say? Vote your principles.
Posted By: Chad_Underdonk
Date: 2008-01-25 11:06:04
Scooter wrote:
Paul’s says back the currency with gold. Now there is a fancily.. So much paper money has been circulated. that is a physical impossibility.
Actually, the working theory Doc Paul supports is to stop taxation on gold so that it is treated exactly like cold hard cash. No, he doesn't expect people to walk around with gold coin, and I'm not quite sure whether or not he wants people to exchange their "notes" for actual gold. What he wants is to make gold (and silver) as untaxed commodities.
Essentially that means that you would have a gold or silver bond (that you bought from the bank for instance, or the commodities market) that you would be able to keep and use as a hedge against inflation. If its never taxed and treated as cash, then when paper notes experience inflation and gold does not, then the owner of the notes isn't penalized for investing.
What it boils down to is that he doesn't want to simply replace paper money, but he essentially wants commodities backed notes to be circulatable. Which means that eventually "trust" based notes like our current dollars would disappear due to natural extinction in the market. Who would want to use a currency based on trust when you could exchange a currency that is based on a commodity.
Posted By: hope7134
Date: 2008-01-25 12:30:31
What question did you have? When writing an article you need to include all the information, so all the information can be reviewed. You must understand Ron Paul supporters come from a variety of races, backgrounds, ages, etc...! To say Ron Paul will lose because of his supporters is to say all candidates will lose because of their supporters. Because every candidate has many types of supporters. Just the title of your message is biased; don't you agree. I believe if Ron Paul loses it won't be because of his supporters but that America is still not ready to be freedom from the tyranny that is expanding. But, don't worry as the tyranny expands further, Americans will agree. (Hopefully that won't be too late!)
But, you must also understand our candidate has been slandered, blacked out, shut down by all forms of media and it is constantly slammed in the faces of his supporters. We can't even get a fair vote in the primaries. Please forgive us if we are less than congenial. But, the good news is, even with the derogatory, half truths (like this article), the blackouts, etc...the messenger and the message are still going forward. So back to your article: give us the full details and let people response to the article that motivated you to write this one.
If you can not do that, then the Ron Paul supporters will assume there was not article and this is just another slam against our candidate.
By the way, have you read the bill of rights or the Constitution yet. Sounds like instead of fighting against Ron Paul and his supporters, you might need to do some research. You might end up shouting louder than the rest of us.
Posted By: Nannette
Date: 2008-01-25 12:43:09
"The Democrats DO hate America and DO collude on everything from entering us into wars to erasing our civil liberties."
?? I believe it is George Bush who did (and is still doing) those things, and last I heard, he is calling himself a Republican. That is why so many people are saying they will vote for anyone who isn't Republican.
For years I have considered myself an apathetic independent, voting for the lesser of the evils because there wasn't any candidate I thought would do what they actually said they would do. Then my 19 year old son told me he was for Ron Paul and I should check him out. I did, and what a breath of fresh air! Ron Paul cured my apathy. Dr. Paul is passionate about his beliefs, and it is contagious.
But one of Ron Paul's core principles is he can't and won't tell people what to think. He says this is about the message, not the messenger. Many people are astounded at the very blatant attempts by the mass media and even the Republican Party to marginalize the man, and want others to see this and realize what is happening to our country.
Focus on what Ron Paul believes and his honest assessment of where this country is heading, and what he will do as President to get us back on track. Look at his voting record. He has no hidden agenda, and he doesn't owe anything to Goldman Sachs or anyone except the American people. (That is interesting - why do they have their sticky fingers in every pie? Hedging their bet?)
Disregarding the man and his principles because of a few over-zealous supporters seems short-sighted. It's like that ridiculous question asked of Ron Paul at a debate - what was he going to do about the 911 Truthers who support him. Huh? No other candidate is asked what they are going to do with supporters who have "different" ideas. I think the one thing most Ron Paul supporters share is a belief in the principles on which this country was founded and that we can once again be a great nation.
Posted By: Bob D
Date: 2008-01-25 13:32:13
Actually, I would take the opposite position of Logical Premise. I'm surprised and disappointed about the patience and passivity of most, not all, of the supportrers of Ron Paul. At least from a strategic point of view. Lets look at their main opponents, the neocons. It is well documented that they get their tactics from the Irving Kristol Trotskyites. Their tactics are quite confrontational. And they work. For a second example lets look at the civil rights movement for the past 50 years. You call that under-zealous? OK maybe these tactics are ugly and you don't want to adapt them completely. But the "logical premise" strategy (and I say this with lots of love like I was talking to my own adult daughter) is the strategy of a dam fool.
Posted By: Heather Wright
Date: 2008-01-25 13:51:02
Let me just start off by saying that I read this article (and I would have read the one mentioned but alas, no link)
I also read most of the comments.
I hope, dear "statist" that you realise the Paulites are as diverse a group of people as any of the other candidates supporters.
I believe the crazy ones you are talking about appear in support of other candidates, for example I've known many people that try to convince me to vote Clinton because "OMG SHES A WOMAN! wouldn't that be so cool to have a woman president!"... or especially supporters of Obama that support him and push the fact that he's black and "Its about time we had a black president" or call him the next Martin Luther King jr because he has a powerful voice.
All these people seem to do is hear a few words out of the candidates mouth and run with it.
There are many ignorant Paulites who don't know exactly what they're doing, but they know that they've heard a little part of his message and felt inspired. They want other people to be just as inspired so they try to force it on people. But there are intelligent people who actually research and learn all they can about multiple candidates and decide that Ron Paul has a message that sounds different from all the others, something that sounds radical, something they want to see played out.
This year more than any other there is a dangerous situation with the choosing of our next president. The American people have many choices and I believe this years president will sway the country in a new direction, no matter who gets elected.
All I can do as a supporter of Ron Paul is talk to others around me one on one and get their opinions and share with them mine. I oppose people trying to force their opinions on anyone and so does Ron Paul, but there is no way to eliminate the ignorant people from taking something good and pure and slapping it around in the mud.
Posted By: Heather Wright
Date: 2008-01-25 14:13:18
Let me just start off by saying that I read this article (and I would have read the one mentioned but alas, no link)
I also read most of the comments.
I hope, dear "statist" that you realise the Paulites are as diverse a group of people as any of the other candidates supporters.
I believe the crazy ones you are talking about appear in support of other candidates, for example I've known many people that try to convince me to vote Clinton because "OMG SHES A WOMAN! wouldn't that be so cool to have a woman president!"... or especially supporters of Obama that support him and push the fact that he's black and "Its about time we had a black president" or call him the next Martin Luther King jr because he has a powerful voice.
All these people seem to do is hear a few words out of the candidates mouth and run with it.
There are many ignorant Paulites who don't know exactly what they're doing, but they know that they've heard a little part of his message and felt inspired. They want other people to be just as inspired so they try to force it on people. But there are intelligent people who actually research and learn all they can about multiple candidates and decide that Ron Paul has a message that sounds different from all the others, something that sounds radical, something they want to see played out.
This year more than any other there is a dangerous situation with the choosing of our next president. The American people have many choices and I believe this years president will sway the country in a new direction, no matter who gets elected.
All I can do as a supporter of Ron Paul is talk to others around me one on one and get their opinions and share with them mine. I oppose people trying to force their opinions on anyone and so does Ron Paul, but there is no way to eliminate the ignorant people from taking something good and pure and slapping it around in the mud.
Posted By: Billy
Date: 2008-01-25 15:24:52
Snore...
Booooring! What's this? Somebody (an actual real live person) is not voting for Paul. Holy crap! I thought everybody was voting for Paul. Oh man, we're in trouble now! I read that he said it was something a friend said who liked what Paul said a bunch of times, but the way he said it wasn't the way he would like it to be said. Damnit, we're going to lose now! When Ron throws in the towel, he should mention that friend.
Posted By: JimS
Date: 2008-01-25 18:27:48
Statist - you basically wanted him to change his positions on everything to become more electable - wtf did you expect? As a statist you should now be going with the flow; but, as a statist your article is not, so does that now disqualify you as a statist? The problem I have is; you propose a collective mentality but then turn around and try and stand on your own – it’s all very contradictory.
Posted By: joan
Date: 2008-01-25 18:32:16
Go tell these people they are misbehaving: check out www.ronpaul2008.com/endorsements Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, Peter Schiff, Don Luskin, Norma Rae McCorvey of "Jane Doe", The Muslim Observer, Read List of Academics for Ron Paul, Military soldiers (behaving badly????), Homeschool World, Nations Policemen, Barry Goldwater, Jr., check out the great Jim Sinclair www.jsmineset.com check out www.goldseek.com , actors, politicians, Gary Johnson and go to www.american-election.com to see more. Also look at all the people in various countries - meet up groups in Canada hahahaha
Posted By: Doc W
Date: 2008-01-26 00:04:27
I think Paul's new supporters tend to be pretty rambunctious at first, then settle down eventually. I voted for him in 1988 (when I was pretty rambunctious myself). When his supporters have all settled down, I suppose it will mean either that we've won, or else we're not bringing any new people on board.
Wish you'd repeated your question here and given us another chance to respond and win your support.
Posted By: Brett
Date: 2008-01-26 17:54:37
Isn't it funny that all the statist articles on this website have to do with Ron Paul..
Just shows you that statists have nothing to do but rape and pillage the one true candidate running.
Go Ron Go
Posted By: MTGradwell
Date: 2008-01-27 06:06:09
To the people saying they'd comment on the original article if they had a link: You can select "columns" from the menu at the top, scroll down to "Logical Premise", click, and discover that LP has written three articles including this one. It's fairly obvious which of the other two is the one referred to.
Or cut and paste http://www.nolanchart.com/article1420.html into your browser address bar. I did put this link in an earlier comment, but it seems to have got overlooked in the crowd.
Reading the responses to article1420, you will quickly come to see why no link was provided. They don't at all support the assertion that "out of sixteen responses,about five actually bothered to read what I was saying", and the article itself doesn't support the assertion that LP was trying to raise a thought-provoking question, and not be in any way insulting. All but one of the responses that I read addressed LP's question in one way or another. I found this both surprising and heartening given that LP had written:
"I think that a lot of Dr. Paul's supporters will claim that they were cheated, or voter fraud, or that the MSM wrecked the campaign, or what have you. They will accept anything except the idea that most people find their ideas alien, frightening, naive, and almost idealistically childish."It would have been so easy to respond angrily to that.
Only one response didn't address the rhetorical "What does it mean if Dr. Paul loses" question, responding instead to the "I think..." with an entirely appropriate "Who cares what you think?"
"Alien, frightening, naive and almost idealistically childish". This, we are told, is meant to be thought provoking and not in any way insulting. Well, I will admit that my thoughts are provoked, but so too is the rest of me.
Posted By: osreinstall
Date: 2008-02-03 19:08:16
It appears you have a rational problem. You will not support a candidate because of a few fanboys you rubbed elbows. There is good and bad in every crowd and to think we are all like this is well, prejudiced. You should look at the supporters of the other candidates. With your logic, you shouldn't vote for anyone. The proper attitude to take is to avoid that particular supporter. I think your excuse is very lame.
Posted By: osreinstall
Date: 2008-02-03 19:15:22
You don't judge a candidate by the action of a few supporters. There are plenty of fine folks that you overlooked. Sounds like you are prejudiced so this article is pretty lame.
Posted By: No Name Supplied
Date: 2008-02-06 01:00:52
Actually, a gold backed currency with as much currency as we have now really isn't a physical impossibility. If $1000 buys one ounce of gold then that dollar is worth 1/1000 of an ounce of gold.
Obviously it becomes difficult redeeming that dollar for gold but when you save $250 then you can trade them in for a 1/4 oz of gold.
Posted By: indopus
Date: 2008-02-08 19:49:38
People are getting smarter. In the past you had scrolls that only the noble could read. Then you had the printing press where you could mass produce books. Then came the telegraph where people could communicate over long distances. Then came the telephone. Then the radio, people could broadcasts messages to others. TV starts with just about 13 VHF channels. Then you have cable TV boosting the channels up to 200 something. And now you have the internet, unfiltered, not centrally controlled. People are getting smarter. It is much easier now to learn something you want to know because you almost have a global library in your home. What will the future bring? More data and more people earning for knowledge. Even better mediums and more individual explorations. Hence welcome to the age of reason. The revolution has begun and the age of faith is fading. No longer will people take it has faith to believe in something. They will use reason to understand the truth for themselves.
Posted By: Nick Tower
Date: 2008-02-16 20:17:55
I agree that some people are better at using vinegar rather than honey to promote their views. Since Ron Paul's campaign has succeeded largely word of mouth, it can fail that way too.
Ron Paul says that 'it's the message, not the messenger', and you should take that into account the next time you hear from one of his unofficial 'messengers'.
My sympathies.
Posted By: Walt Thiessen
Date: 2008-02-26 20:46:20
Well, it's not exactly an unusual argument. "Some supporters are rude and crude; therefore the entire camp is a bunch of losers."
The problem is that this analysis can be applied to every camp, including yours. Remember "The Statist"? He was originally a statist...then a centrist...then a libertarian...then....well, by that point I'd kicked him off the site. The point is that many of his arguments (the ones that weren't purely intended to start a fight) were on the side of statism. Should I judge you by him?
If I remember correctly, even you were pissed off at him.
Posted By: Kevin Mitchell
Date: 2008-02-27 01:16:48
Darn, I thought I could blame his (possible) loss on a virtual lamestream media blackout.
Posted By: Logical Premise
Date: 2008-02-28 08:31:26
Walt, the so-called "Statist" was a troll who chose that political section of the map simply to irritate. There are VERY CLEARLY "Libertarians" on this site who are just the same, but are they being censured?
Every time an author writes an article which disagrees with Libertarian philosophy, you get about 20% thoughtful commentary, 50% empty vitriol, and 30% random spouting of "Go Ron Paul" or variations thereof. That can only lead me to believe that 20% of the base is engageable, and the rest is , well, "like that" -- boorish, uneducated, shouting blind slogans without the slightest understanding of the consequences.
After writing articles on this site, I have been called :
- a coward or morally reprehensible -- for saying what I believe in.
- a traitor, told to leave America -- most times by people without military service such as I rendered
- less than a man, not-a-man -- for daring to disagree with Libertarian values
- a communist , a facist, and a socialist - for having the unmitigated gall to suggest that GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL.
I have seen people I admire conflated to Hitler, I have been told that my opinion doesn't matter, and that I am a fascist. The point that keeps being made is that "well, not all of us are like that" and that I shouldn't make the argument that "some supporters are rude and refuse to listen or engage in discussion, so the entire camp is".
The assertion I am making is different, which is "a minority of Ron Paul supporters, and Libertarians in general, are reasonable and discuss and can be engaged. The rest simply will not tolerate any discussion and can't rise higher than attacks and namecalling."
The difference? Unless I am mistaken, Libertarians are supposed to be taking the high road, not "initiating violence", not "advocating control". Yet more than 80% of the time, that's all I see. I'll judge people by how they act.
Ultimately, I use two factors in determining who to vote for. One is the platform, and two is the level and type of popular support from the American People. A canidate that the people support may get my vote even if I don't totally agree with his politics. I didn't agree with a lot of Bush's politics, but when I engaged in online or offline discussion with neocons they were a) patient, explaining their views b) open to the idea that they could change and that new ideas were not always bad c) not saying that they had the only "correct answer" but that they had the best answer for the condition of the world.
They were wrong...but their politenss, their willingness to engage in dialogue, and their ability to rationally argue convinced me that maybe they had a point.
As it turns out, I was wrong. But when I see the Ron Paul campaign, I see the platform -- which is (no suprise) to me all wrong. So I expose myself to Libertarian thought.
Am I able to engage in reasoned debate, not very often.
Are my ideas given any consideration? No.
Does the base accept the idea that there can be ANY other answer than their ideas? No.
A base like that will produce a political following like that, which isn't an America I want to live in. Dogmatic, blind allegience to "values" without any analysis or the ability to accept change or improvement is simply sticking your head in the sand.
I have no problems with "agreeing to disagree". But please, don't make it a byline of your site that you "encourage discussion from all quadrants" when eight times out of ten the discussion is mostly about how wrong/blind/stupid/socialist/fascist the poster is.